My Fall From Grace

[Hassan]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1686447' date='Oct 25 2008, 11:15 PM']If you are drawn to existentialists, try Tillich next. He's not quite so bad. I could never go down that path because the end of the trail is the denial of the historical Jesus.

If studying philosophy, either in school or independently, is drawing you away from the truth of the Church, maybe you should find something else to learn about. Lots of other sciences out there. Or how about a nice hobby? I love learning new crafts, or rather old ones. I can highly recommend mosaics. It is art, it is craft, it is tactile. Learning to sew or knit is a good idea too. Lots of skills are being lost in our modern age. Find something to apprentice at that you can feel good about saving for the font of human future knowledge.[/quote]


I've heard of him. I love existentalist Litt like Kundra etc but, ironically, I think the Church is right on this, even more ironically a Muslim taught me this. Shabbir Akhtar who did his doctoral work in Christian Existentalism did a powerfull critique on it and I think the Church it right, a fath based on existentalism/fideism is empty. It may work for some but it seems like a dead end. I mean the "God" of Kierkegaard was a distant being, not even really a being, "in which all things are possible" the God of Dostoevsky was distant as well.

I thought about being a philosophy/mathematics major but I decided I wanted to eat at some point after school so now I'm in something else. And I really have not studied philosophy in a while so I don't think that's it. I would like to find a hobby, I'm a bit busy right now, really PhatMass is my habby, something to do kind of off to the side. I would like to know how to sew though.

I can't really take my mind off of it. I'm like ADD or something I always have to think about and alalyise everything. It's not voluntary it's compulsive. When I was in 11th grade I wanted to die because I coulden't stop thinking about things, I was so tired and wanted to stop so much and wanted to die just so I could have some peace but I could not stop. So no matter what I do I'd be thinking about those things anyway. It's not that I'm smart it's just a compulsion.

[Saint Therese]

Have you read St. John of the Cross's Dark Night of the Soul?

God is usually nearest when he seems furthest away.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Saint Therese

[Hassan]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1686477' date='Oct 26 2008, 12:37 AM']Have you read St. John of the Cross's Dark Night of the Soul?[/quote]

I started to a while ago. I will try to read it sometime: )

[Saint Therese]

i know you might think this is crazy, but I think prayer is the answer. Because through prayer we not only begin to have faith, but we [i]experience God himself through grace.[/i]

[Hassan]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1686464' date='Oct 26 2008, 12:24 AM']Wow, man. Hopefully I speak for everyone else here when I say I appreciate your honesty. Your whole process in trying to figure things out sounds really exhausting.

When I was in high school I sure couldn't be bothered to read something like Dostoyevsky. I thought about things like boys and soccer. If someone asked me about religion I would have just smiled, shrugged and said, "oh gee, well shucks, I think God's really cool!" I was a smart kid, but couldn't be bothered with deep philosophical questions too much. I was an artistic soul in the making but anything of that nature I swept under the rug because I felt that was expected of me.[/quote]

Yeah, I mean this is a side note but I've always hated that. When girls feel they have to act flighty or dense to be femanine or beautifull/attractive.

or that's what I got from the "that's what was expected of me" thing

[quote]Then in college I started asking the Big Questions when got kicked in the face by severe depression. I had struggles with concepts of spiritual perfection and scrupulosity, agonized over what Jesus was doing on the cross in the first place, and who was going to hell and who wasn't.

I kind of wonder if you also experienced some scruples, and to me that's an easy way to just get burnt out or too overwhelmed to want to bother when a faith seems to be just about doing everything right and perfect and avoiding hell. There's not a lot of joy in that.[/quote]

It sounds like kind of what I went through. What did you do?

[quote]All I can say is that we have our whole lives and we aren't going to figure things out overnight. Finding answers through reason and reading is great -- though I would hope that perhaps on some level, a relationship with God in a positive and personal way would factor in as well.[/quote]

I know

[quote]Lately I have just felt spiritually DRY and mentally tired...not from the search for answers to eternal questions. Just from LIFE. Catholicism is an inseparable part of my very being and Pascal's wager has always made an impression on me so don't you people start getting funny ideas that I've lapsed. Not gonna happen.[/quote]

I love Pascal

[quote]Hassan I will light a candle for you when I'm at mass tomorrow. I'll be in Oxford. [/quote]

thank you: )

[Hassan]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1686483' date='Oct 25 2008, 11:40 PM']i know you might think this is crazy, but I think prayer is the answer. Because through prayer we not only begin to have faith, but we [i]experience God himself through grace.[/i][/quote]

I will try.

That's all I can promise, but I'll do that.

[Saint Therese]

I think a quote from The Life You Save May Be Your Own, by Paul Elie, expresses my thought: "They tested their philosophy with their lives."

[Hassan]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1686460' date='Oct 25 2008, 11:21 PM']I'm a member of a charismatic prayer group, and its really helped me a lot.[/quote]


That actually hurt me.( such events, not your comment)

I saw people whome I knew were not faithfull Catholics haveing these profound spiritual experiences. I, and I'm not trying to be vain, really tried to be a good Catholic and never had any experience. It pointed to me to it being more emotional than genuin spiritual experience. I mean I have never been drunk. I never did drugs, wasn't out sleeping around etc. But they wanted an experience and had it, I tried to just be open but be honest about my own possible internal promptings and never experienced God.

I remember kneeling in adoration and honestly no matter how hard I tried to silence my thoughts I kept thinking, "Good Lord, your kneeling down in front of a piece of bread" I tried to silence that Blasphamey and affirm, "no it is Christ in substance, bread in accident" etc. I just never could really connect.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Hassan

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1686491' date='Oct 26 2008, 12:46 AM']I will try.

That's all I can promise, but I'll do that.[/quote]

I'll be praying for you, and with you as well.
Try to remember that just because you don't feel anything, it doesn't mean that your prayer isn't heard by God.
My advice would be just to say several times a day, when you have a free moment, "God i don't even know if you exist, but if you do , make yourself known to me."

I've had similar experiences during adoration, as I'm sure everyone has.
As far as your experience at the prayer group meetings,well... I'm always extremely cautious about things like that because we have such an amazing ability to decieve ourselves, and be decieved. What I mean is some people are favored by extraordinary prayer experiences, but most are not. What i find most helpful about my group is the fellowship and prayerful support.
Its a much better, and desirable thing to live a normal good life than have fantastic prayer experiences.

[hoosieranna]

You're not the only questioning poster. We all search at some point, with varying results. It's Pascal that keeps me on the believing side of things, if for no other reason than the odds are better. (Though it's not the only reason!) I do hope you find whatever it may be that you need, if you haven't found it already. Good luck.

[philothea]

Hassan, thank you for sharing.

I think many believers have similar experiences, and with your personal honesty and drive to research, I'm certain you'll find your way through to the truth, in time. Prayers for you, even so.

Whenever I get fed up and despondent with God and Catholicism, I threaten to become a Buddhist. (So far, things get better pretty soon afterwards! I don't think it'd be right to recommend this method, though. )

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1686477' date='Oct 26 2008, 12:37 AM']Have you read St. John of the Cross's Dark Night of the Soul?

God is usually nearest when he seems furthest away.[/quote]

I thought of recommending St. John of the Cross, though perhaps [i]The Ascent of Mount Carmel[/i] instead, since that has some great explanations of the utter darkness of faith. But... I don't know if more reading will help, and St. John is difficult. Still, no harm in trying.

I used to read a lot of philosophy. Mostly it was to try to cover up my insecurities -- if I could act brainy enough, maybe no one would question my complete lack of credentials. Over time, while I enjoyed picking up philosophical tools to think about reality and meaning, it was unsatisfying. Words are slippery, logic is more an ideal than a reality, and no amount of arguing something makes it be so. Even Aquinas gave up on his Summa. St. John never finished writing [i]The Ascent[/i]. I think philosophy is important, but I don't think it can reach any ultimate meaning.

You know we're here for you if you ever want to discuss anything or reconsider.

[Semalsia]

I'm curious, Hassan. Would you really want to have faith? If so, why?

Edited October 26, 2008 by Semalsia

[Hassan]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1686660' date='Oct 26 2008, 10:02 AM']I'm curious, Hassan. Would you really want to have faith? If so, why?[/quote]
ah!

That's the interesting question isin't it?

What I am most interested in is what is actually true, so if I believed Catholicism, or any religion, were true my personal wants would not be an issue.

Beyond that it is a mixed bag. There are some good things about religion. It gives you a sense of meaning and comfort, that there is some "larger plan" and clear cut moral answers.

Plus it can be nice to give a quick prayer before an exam you blew off

But there are bad things as well. As Pascal said

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."

There are some nice things about being religious. Not haveing to try and fit everything you read into your faith, not haveing to always ask two questions about every argument, First is it a sound argment, second can I accecpt it (like does it fit with the faith).

Its a mixed bag.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Nadezhda' post='1686555' date='Oct 26 2008, 01:35 AM']You're not the only questioning poster. We all search at some point, with varying results. It's Pascal that keeps me on the believing side of things, if for no other reason than the odds are better. (Though it's not the only reason!) I do hope you find whatever it may be that you need, if you haven't found it already. Good luck.[/quote]

Thanks: )

[Hassan]

[quote name='philothea' post='1686582' date='Oct 26 2008, 04:59 AM']Hassan, thank you for sharing.

I think many believers have similar experiences, and with your personal honesty and drive to research, I'm certain you'll find your way through to the truth, in time. Prayers for you, even so.

Whenever I get fed up and despondent with God and Catholicism, I threaten to become a Buddhist. (So far, things get better pretty soon afterwards! I don't think it'd be right to recommend this method, though. )[/quote]





[quote]I thought of recommending St. John of the Cross, though perhaps [i]The Ascent of Mount Carmel[/i] instead, since that has some great explanations of the utter darkness of faith. But... I don't know if more reading will help, and St. John is difficult. Still, no harm in trying.[/quote]

yeah, I've been meaning to read him and Al-Ghazzil's autobiography

[quote]I used to read a lot of philosophy. Mostly it was to try to cover up my insecurities -- if I could act brainy enough, maybe no one would question my complete lack of credentials. Over time, while I enjoyed picking up philosophical tools to think about reality and meaning, it was unsatisfying. Words are slippery, logic is more an ideal than a reality, and no amount of arguing something makes it be so. Even Aquinas gave up on his Summa. St. John never finished writing [i]The Ascent[/i]. I think philosophy is important, but I don't think it can reach any ultimate meaning.[/quote]

No, and I've never really been interested in "Systems" like Sartre. I men I've read some things by him but his kind of Philosophy is nothing more than interesting.

[quote]You know we're here for you if you ever want to discuss anything or reconsider. [/quote]

Thanks you