My Fall From Grace

[Hassan]

I am writing this by request of some individuals whom I used to be in contact with why wished that I would explain why I am no longer religious. Anyone is welcome to read it and offer any advice but I thought I’d explain its origin.
I was not raised in a religious home. At least we didn’t used to be I think my mother is becoming a more religious women and thinking back she did pray sometimes. For the most part, however, religion was a Sunday sort of thing. I went to Catholic grade and Middle School, received the Sacraments, and went to weekly Mass. Yet despite this frequent contact with religion it never really played any substantial role in my life. I do not remember even conceptualizing the idea that life had “meaning” until high school when I heard people talking about this foreign notion. I was not nihilistic (a bit pessimistic though I suppose) I was more what Camus would have called “Pagan” that is something of a pre-Christian unworried by the great metaphysical concerns and simply enjoying my life as best I could, not wrapped up in the existential struggles of the post Christian writers like Sartre. I remember two vague inclinations towards religion. When I was very young I offered “God” the deal that I would become a Priest if he would protect my family from death. This was not, so far as I recall, devotional but simply a quid pro quo one would expect from a child afraid of his family dying and being without them. Secondly I had a brief desire to be religious for the comfort, specifically in the event of an aircraft crash, so I would find comfort in prayer while waiting to die from the accident. These two very obscure childish inclinations are all I really remember. Although I did read my child’s Bible quite a bit. Around 10th grade this changed. I agreed to go to LifeTeen Mass so I would not have to get up early (I have always been a nocturnal specimen, often staying up until 7/8 AM) to go to Mass. At LifeTeen the closest I ever got to religious was “perhaos there is a God”.
Around 10th grade this began to change. There were two major events. Firstly my Youth Minister presented Aquinas’s five argument for the existence for God. That managed to bring me to a vague theism. After that event Pope John Paul II died and I watched on in awe. I say “awe” because that is the only proper term to use. Seeing that old Polish Priest was the most amazing act of faith I had ever seen and it touched me to my core. I around this time I discovered a book by an evangelical Christian named Lee Strobel called “The Case for Faith” and heard my Youth Minister’s presentation on the Five Proofs for God’s existence. These three catalysts drove me to one exciting though, “Maybe it’s true!”. Shortly after Ratzinger was elected to the Papacy I bought two books by him, “Introduction to Christianity” and “Truth and Tolerance”. I was particularly struck by three stories Ratzinger recounted in “Introduction to Christianity”. First was Kierkegaard’s parable about the clown and the town about to be engulfed in flames(as told by Harvey Cox), Martin Bubber’s tale of the young skeptic who is rebuked by the Rabbi, “But think my son, perhaps it is true after all!”, and the Jesuit bound for his cross adrift at sea in Paul Claudel’s Soulier de Satin. I think it is safe to say that the two main pillars of my faith was the example of Pope John Paul II and the intellectual works of Joseph Ratzinger (who I still find to be one of the most profound thinkers I’ve ever read).

I rented Thomas Aquinas’s Summa and read some of, I found his five argument interesting and for a long time stuck to the frst cause argument. I skimmed him a bit but never really read him that much. Much more interesting for me (largely because I head Ratzinger said if he were stuck on a desert Island and could only bring two books it would be the Bible and “Confessions” by St. Augustine). Augustine also blew me away with that beautiful line,
“GREAT art Thou, O Lord, and greatly to be praised; great is Thy power, and Thy wisdom infinite. 1 And Thee would man praise; man, but a particle of Thy creation; man, that bears about him his mortality, the witness of his sin, the witness that Thou resistest the proud: 2 yet would man praise Thee; he, but a particle of Thy creation. Thou awakest us to delight in Thy praise; for Thou madest us for Thyself, and our heart is restless, until it repose in Thee.”
I flirted with ID but ultimately rejected it.
Around 11th grade I found Dostoevsky and Kierkegaard (Nietzsche too but I was wary of him). “The Brothers Karamazov” and “Fear and Trembling” were huge influences on my life. Here is where things get interesting for my rejection of faith. Why was I reading existentialism? Because the arguments of the apologists were beginning to break down. I think this was my first major crisis of faith. The safe assurance of apolegitics were beginning to collapse and my soul was filled with a deep existential angst which filled me with dread that I might loose this new, beautiful faith. Fortunately my readings of Dostoevsky and Kierkegaard (combined with on offhanded remark by my grandfather) allowed me to secure myself with an existentialism or fideism. Unfortunately after that I checked out a four volume series on 20th century philosophy. At the beginning of one volume (I didn’t read them straight through by any means, just skimming) the editor mentioned that a Catholic must, as an article of faith, believe that God’s existence was proveable. To my horror I found out that, indeed, Vatican I condemned fideism. I submitted my judgement to the Church and, while existentialism still influenced my a good deal, I changed my view to fit the Church. But with my existentialism curbed I had to find a new way to keep the faith. I found this towards the end of 11th grade with Phenomenology. I was delighted to learn that Pope John Paul’s Philosopher was influenced highly by, along with Kant, Phenomenology. I found, “Introduction to Phenomenology” by a Catholic Priest Monsignor Robert Sokolowski. He also awed my in his analysis and found his meditation on Murphy very profound. I stuck with this path, more or less, until 12th grade. I started to read Husserl’s “Logical Investigations” but discarded him and phenomenology due to the criticism of Wittgenstein and GM Anscom be(A Catholic Philosopher from Oxford).
I think this is important. Phenomenology was my last ditch effort to find proof/argument for Catholicism, in the sense of proactive argument for it’s truth. After Phenomenology I was from Continental Philosophy to Anglo-Analytic Philosophy. Philosophy of mathematics, symbolic logic, analytic Philosophy. Very narrow subjects that had nothing to do with religion. This was my final protection from the attacks on faith. A snobbishness that only studied the abstract and, while immensely beautiful, value neutral logic and philosophy of logic. Russell was a fierce atheist but not even his “Introduction to Mathematical Philosophy” could touch religion. I found resurgence in Godel. He was a Mathematical Platonist and subscribed to phenomenological analysis. His argument for an afterlife with his mother were actually quite interesting. by this point my faith was little more than a shadow of it’s former self. Looking back a few things were important to dislodge my devotional practice of religion. You see my faith was dislodged by two things. One was an intellectual support for my faith whose collapse I thing I have accounted for, but there was also the lack of any practical application of my faith in my daily life. I read, “The Interior Castle” by St. Theresa of Avila that God had no connection to a sinner in mortal sin. I tried to go to confession. My nature I’m private an introverted. I can be quite cold actually but I have tried to work on this an my inatly intense misanthropic disposition These tendencies made confession a harrowing experience. I made my first confession after coming back to the faith in 11th grade. Two instances stand out but I don’t remember which came first. Confessing to a Priest in the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal and my Parish Priest and confessing to my Parish priest(A Passionist). I tried to be Saintly, honestly. I searched my concisious diligently searching my soul for ever possible sin. I remember trembling before confession, every instance was a struggle. I remember praying to St. Padre Pio, John Vianney, Maxamilian Kolbe, John Paul II, Theresa of Avila, and “The Little Flower”. The examples of the Saints were a strong force in my faith, especially Padre Pio. I managed to make confessions it was an agonizing experience for me but I did it, but I could never overcome my sin and eventually abandoned it, I believe this was around Summer after High School.
I had tried to live the spiritual life. I was inspired by the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal. I dressed simply and kept very few possessions. Even my Rosary was simple and wooden, never ornate. I tried to pray but it just never took. I made it a habit before consuming any food or dink, “Bless us oh Lord for these thy gifts which we are about to receive Amen”. But I never felt like I was making spiritual progress. No matter how hard I tried I just did not seem to be cut out for the spiritual life or aesthetic.
A few “scandals” took place in my spiritual life that also undermined my spiritual foundation. My grandfather is not a Catholic but an Episcopalian and I was constantly afraid for his immortal soul, especially saince he voted, at times, for pro-choice politicians. His liberal Episcopalianism always troubled me and I remember laying in mental agony over the prospect of his damnation, my paternal grandfather as well. The thought of any merciful God excluding them from heaven ravaged me emotionally and I would have happily traded my salvation for theirs. I eventually overcame thins but was emotionally crippled. I never felt like my confirmation was legitimate. I went to confession before hand so I would not receive Sacrament in mortal sin, before the Bishop laid his hands on me I was annoyed and cursed “God******” I tried to not think it but it slipped out and I received the Eucharist. Receiving the Eucharist was something I took extremely seriously and received it rarely because I was afraid of receiving the Eucharist in sin, so I would only receive if I had been to Confession right before.
I still remember my prayers at night. First the Rosary, St. Michael the Archangel, a prayer for Priests, Prayer for the Conversion of Saints, etc. The I would petition my key saints. Pope John Paul II, Kolbe, Pio, Vianney etc. But my inability to make progress, terror of Confession, etc all detached me from Catholicism devotionally. The divorce from me and devotional practice combined with the crumbling of the intellectual support for my faith worked to make my faith an external thing. I remember my first year trying to Reconcile Catholicism with what I felt to be Searle’s convincing argument for Biological Naturalism.
I still maintained my Catholicism for the beauty of it, particularly the New Testament and Pope John Paul II. The death blow came, ironically enough given this place, from a Muslim. I still had something of my faith left although now it was a detached abstraction. I still attended Mass, would try to defend it at times, and would have never voted for a pro-choice cannidate. Towards the end of my Second Semester I was taking a Seminar on Immigration fro the Honors Program. We had to do final projects (paper and presentation) on something to do with Immigration. I decided to do mine on Iranian Immigration to the US after the Islamic Revolution. A Syrian friend of mine joined me for the project. While we were talking while working on sifting through Journal Articles she mentioned her classes. Being pre-med one of her classes involved evolutionary biology. She mentioned that she wanted to read “On the Origin of Species” by Darwin and said, “sometimes I don’t know about Evolution” and “I mean, I know it all goes back to God”. Sudenly I went back to watching the Pope die on television. It was a simply statement of total faith. It shattered by vague abstract Catholicism and brought me back to a serious attempt to understand religion.
Only this time I knew better than to be tricked by the flawed argument of Stroble. I began to try and understand exactly why I was a Catholic but the ladder had burned down behind me and the old apologetics that origionally led to to Christianity were no longer viable. In recounting why I believed in what I believed in I was reminded of an article by Karl Popper I read about his theory of falsifiability. He mentioned Ptolmey’s model of the Universe. Ptolemy once had real legitimate reasons to believe his model was true but through the ages evidence came up to reject the model. Attempting to maintain the model astronomers expanded it into a staggeringly cumbersome model that no longer really made sense. Every time a new anomaly popped up the model was expanded to incorporate it and still maintain the basic model. I realized that this is what my faith had become and I could no longer understand why I maintained it.
And so there I was. With no reason to understand why I was a Catholic and emotionally and intellectually exhausted. With that I let the last of my faith slip away.
I remember Pascal’s recommendation to one who said they could not have faith, he told them to “fake it till you make it” basically, only in much more eloquent language. Perhaps this would work however I had no reason to believe Catholicism was any more true than any other religion and so did not into which religion I ought to make that, “leap of faith”. Moreover any attempt would be contingent on intellectual argument for the faith, which would always make the faith contingent on the possibility of some new evidence appearing to demolish my new intellectual foundation for making the faith believable.
I know I am not exactly the “brightest star in the sky” or particularly intelligent in anyway so I know there are plenty of people much smarter than I could ever be who can maintain the faith but honestly I don’t see how they do it and it's beyond what someone of my quite limited intelect could do, God Bless them though.

So there you go. I have tried to be as honest as possible. Sorry for it being a bit scattered.

[Saint Therese]

You should read [b][i]Come Be My Light[/i][/b] . Faith isn't easy for anyone, even a Saint.
I could write a story very similar to yours. The search for meaning has been very important for me.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Saint Therese

[Hassan]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1686357' date='Oct 25 2008, 10:13 PM']You should read [b][i]Come Be My Light[/i][/b] . Faith isn't easy for anyone, even a Saint.[/quote]


I read a few books by Saints.

Right now I'm just tired. Honestly I don't want to sound apathatic or dismissive but trying to hold onto faith consumed my life for almost three years. I could find no proof there was anything to it and was just to tired to continue.

sorry

[Hassan]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1686357' date='Oct 25 2008, 10:13 PM']You should read [b][i]Come Be My Light[/i][/b] . Faith isn't easy for anyone, even a Saint.
I could write a story very similar to yours. The search for meaning has been very important for me.[/quote]

I'd listen to it

[BG45]

Thanks for sharing, wish I could be more profound, but I think I killed my brain for the evening in another thread.

[Saint Therese]

Come Be My Light isn't a typical book by a saint. Trust me on this. I really think it might help you, if you're open to that.

I'll try to tell some of my story, editing for television.
I grew up in a very dysfunctional home. My parents were not religious in the typical sense. My dad is agnostic ( a true agnostic, not a practical atheist as are most "agnostics" today), and my mother was into just about every form of occultism that there is.
I was a child who often annoyed people because I was always asking questions. Why this, why that, continuously. I was often depressed even as a child because I couldn't find meaning in every day existence. Why did one care about life? What was the purpose of achievement, if basically everything was nothing? I'd say I continued in this state until I was about seventeen or eighteen. I was homeschooled the last two years of highschool and by random chance (or divine providence) my dad chose Seton Home School. This was my first real contact with Catholicism, or indeed genuine faith at all. And immediately I was hooked.
From almost the very first I saw that the [i]truth[/i] of Catholicism. Not necessarily in her dogmas or doctrines, but in her understanding of human nature. I had always rejected protestantism as superficial, shallow and having a false view of human nature. I mean, observation alone had shown me that "once saved always saved", or that one's one time conversion from sin was total and final and the struggle was over was false. Human nature just doesn't work that way. WHat I found in Catholicism was truth and meaning. Meaning in the struggle and pain of everyday life.
Anyways, about this time I experienced the first real crisis in my life. My mother had a psychotic break and left us. By this I mean I had an up close and personal view of someone slowly losing their mind on a daiily basis. It was hard. And brutally terrifying. And I was basically alone because my two older sisters were away from home and my dad couldn't cope with the situation and so couldn't be any support to me.
In my aloneness i turned to God, even though I didn't really have a clear concept of Him yet.
I prayed. i mean, real prayer. I think if I hadn't begun to pray at that time I would have gone insane myself.
Not too long after that i went to cllege and joined RCIA and was recieved into the Church.
Since then I have been a revert several times, leaving the sacraments for periods of time, but always returning, because I can never completely reject what I have found to be true.
And I can never completely deny the interior experience of God's grace and love, which is REAL.
And now I'm in love myself. In love with the God who is Truth.
I think a lot of people paint faith and the Christian life as a rosy peaceful life with no or few difficulties. And maybe it is for them, but for me it has been continual struggle and suffering, and even darkness, but I now know that I'm not alone. I'm not, because Jesus is always with me, and he gives meaning to my life, and He is the Truth.

[Hassan]

[quote name='BG45' post='1686396' date='Oct 25 2008, 10:37 PM']Thanks for sharing, wish I could be more profound, but I think I killed my brain for the evening in another thread.[/quote]that's cool

Not as kewl as Fonzie from Happy Days

But then again that's a preaty high standard

[Hassan]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1686397' date='Oct 25 2008, 10:38 PM']Come Be My Light isn't a typical book by a saint. Trust me on this. I really think it might help you, if you're open to that.

I'll try to tell some of my story, editing for television.
I grew up in a very dysfunctional home. My parents were not religious in the typical sense. My dad is agnostic ( a true agnostic, not a practical atheist as are most "agnostics" today), and my mother was into just about every form of occultism that there is.
I was a child who often annoyed people because I was always asking questions. Why this, why that, continuously. I was often depressed even as a child because I couldn't find meaning in every day existence. Why did one care about life? What was the purpose of achievement, if basically everything was nothing? I'd say I continued in this state until I was about seventeen or eighteen. I was homeschooled the last two years of highschool and by random chance (or divine providence) my dad chose Seton Home School. This was my first real contact with Catholicism, or indeed genuine faith at all. And immediately I was hooked.
From almost the very first I saw that the [i]truth[/i] of Catholicism. Not necessarily in her dogmas or doctrines, but in her understanding of human nature. I had always rejected protestantism as superficial, shallow and having a false view of human nature. I mean, observation alone had shown me that "once saved always saved", or that one's one time conversion from sin was total and final and the struggle was over was false. Human nature just doesn't work that way. WHat I found in Catholicism was truth and meaning. Meaning in the struggle and pain of everyday life.
Anyways, about this time I experienced the first real crisis in my life. My mother had a psychotic break and left us. By this I mean I had an up close and personal view of someone slowly losing their mind on a daiily basis. It was hard. And brutally terrifying. And I was basically alone because my two older sisters were away from home and my dad couldn't cope with the situation and so couldn't be any support to me.
In my aloneness i turned to God, even though I didn't really have a clear concept of Him yet.
I prayed. i mean, real prayer. I think if I hadn't begun to pray at that time I would have gone insane myself.
Not too long after that i went to cllege and joined RCIA and was recieved into the Church.
Since then I have been a revert several times, leaving the sacraments for periods of time, but always returning, because I can never completely reject what I have found to be true.
And I can never completely deny the interior experience of God's grace and love, which is REAL.
And now I'm in love myself. In love with the God who is Truth.
I think a lot of people paint faith and the Christian life as a rosy peaceful life with no or few difficulties. And maybe it is for them, but for me it has been continual struggle and suffering, and even darkness, but I now know that I'm not alone. I'm not, because Jesus is always with me, and he gives meaning to my life, and He is the Truth.[/quote]


Thank you very much for sharing. I would like to point out that not all Protestants believe in "once save always saved". In fact I thought only Southern Baptists believed that but I'm probably wrong.

How do you see the church's teaching as "true"?

Like I understand the emotional comfort in finding truth and meaning in every day life and struggle but I don't see how that is unique to Catholicism or proof it is true.

I appreciate your advise and am not trying to spurn it, I just want to un derstand it better

[Saint Therese]

The experience for was beyond emotional. It was super-emotional.

If you could concretize you basic problem with faith, what would it be?

[CatherineM]

If you are drawn to existentialists, try Tillich next. He's not quite so bad. I could never go down that path because the end of the trail is the denial of the historical Jesus.

If studying philosophy, either in school or independently, is drawing you away from the truth of the Church, maybe you should find something else to learn about. Lots of other sciences out there. Or how about a nice hobby? I love learning new crafts, or rather old ones. I can highly recommend mosaics. It is art, it is craft, it is tactile. Learning to sew or knit is a good idea too. Lots of skills are being lost in our modern age. Find something to apprentice at that you can feel good about saving for the font of human future knowledge.

[-I---Love]

"Moreover any attempt would be contingent on intellectual argument for the faith, which would always make the faith contingent on the possibility of some new evidence appearing to demolish my new intellectual foundation for making the faith believable."

If one's faith is only based on some logical proofs it will surely fail. That is not faith.

"... I know there are plenty of people much smarter than I could ever be who can maintain the faith but honestly I don’t see how they do it and it's beyond what someone of my quite limited intelect could do..."

Often it is the simple faith of the peasant who is most pleasing to God. Do you think that Christ founded the Church only for the learned?! We look at the 12 Apostles and see that much to the contrary the Church is even moreso for the simple fishermen.

If one's faith is only fueled by the books they read, one will never be satisfied or content.

"Always remain close to the Catholic Church, because it alone can give you true peace, since it alone possesses Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, the true Prince of Peace." (St. Pio of Pietrelcina)

I recommend going to a prayer group and joining your prayers with theirs together as the Church faithful. Also, why not ask a Priest to pray over you for strength?

[Saint Therese]

I'm a member of a charismatic prayer group, and its really helped me a lot.

[Ash Wednesday]

Wow, man. Hopefully I speak for everyone else here when I say I appreciate your honesty. Your whole process in trying to figure things out sounds really exhausting.

When I was in high school I sure couldn't be bothered to read something like Dostoyevsky. I thought about things like boys and soccer. If someone asked me about religion I would have just smiled, shrugged and said, "oh gee, well shucks, I think God's really cool!" I was a smart kid, but couldn't be bothered with deep philosophical questions too much. I was an artistic soul in the making but anything of that nature I swept under the rug because I felt that was expected of me.

Then in college I started asking the Big Questions when got kicked in the face by severe depression. I had struggles with concepts of spiritual perfection and scrupulosity, agonized over what Jesus was doing on the cross in the first place, and who was going to hell and who wasn't.

I kind of wonder if you also experienced some scruples, and to me that's an easy way to just get burnt out or too overwhelmed to want to bother when a faith seems to be just about doing everything right and perfect and avoiding hell. There's not a lot of joy in that.

All I can say is that we have our whole lives and we aren't going to figure things out overnight. Finding answers through reason and reading is great -- though I would hope that perhaps on some level, a relationship with God in a positive and personal way would factor in as well.

Lately I have just felt spiritually DRY and mentally tired...not from the search for answers to eternal questions. Just from LIFE. Catholicism is an inseparable part of my very being and Pascal's wager has always made an impression on me so don't you people start getting funny ideas that I've lapsed. Not gonna happen.

Hassan I will light a candle for you when I'm at mass tomorrow. I'll be in Oxford.

[Hassan]

[quote name='-I---Love' post='1686448' date='Oct 25 2008, 11:15 PM']"Moreover any attempt would be contingent on intellectual argument for the faith, which would always make the faith contingent on the possibility of some new evidence appearing to demolish my new intellectual foundation for making the faith believable."

If one's faith is only based on some logical proofs it will surely fail. That is not faith.

"... I know there are plenty of people much smarter than I could ever be who can maintain the faith but honestly I don’t see how they do it and it's beyond what someone of my quite limited intelect could do..."

Often it is the simple faith of the peasant who is most pleasing to God. Do you think that Christ founded the Church only for the learned?! We look at the 12 Apostles and see that much to the contrary the Church is even moreso for the simple fishermen.

If one's faith is only fueled by the books they read, one will never be satisfied or content.

"Always remain close to the Catholic Church, because it alone can give you true peace, since it alone possesses Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, the true Prince of Peace." (St. Pio of Pietrelcina)

I recommend going to a prayer group and joining your prayers with theirs together as the Church faithful. Also, why not ask a Priest to pray over you for strength?[/quote]

I understand that. Sorry.

That was the point of mentioning that I was not raised religious and PJPII was the first act of real faith I ever saw. I was never "taught" how to be religious. He and that Muslim girl gave me insights into religious faith but thats about it. Other than that I was always intelectual, which is my very problem. As you said a faith based on proofs and arguments is empty. I honestly understand that but it's all I really know.

[Saint Therese]

It sound like you could be a future Dominican.

I think its important to realize that the point you are at now is not necessarily a stopping point. Faith and doubt go together and are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
Faith is something thats notoriously hard to describe. Its love and trust and walking in the darkness. But its also more than that.
I really started to have faith when I began to pray.
My suggestion would be for you to pray, even if its only "God, I don't know if you exist, but if you do, make yourself known to me." I've prayed that before, believe me.