Augustine

[ironmonk]

Bro, please note that I did not write 'do not answer'.

As for St. Augustine here is what the secular Encyclopedia Briannica has to say...


Augustine, Saint
Encyclopædia Britannica Article

born Nov. 13, 354, Tagaste, Numidia [now Souk Ahras, Algeria]
died Aug. 28, 430, Hippo Regius [now Annaba, Algeria]

also called Saint Augustine of Hippo, original Latin name Aurelius Augustinus feast day August 28, bishop of Hippo from 396 to 430, one of the Latin Fathers of the Church, one of the Doctors of the Church, and perhaps the most significant Christian thinker after St. Paul. Augustine's adaptation of classical thought to Christian teaching created a theological system of great power and lasting influence. His numerous written works, the most important of which are Confessions and City of God, shaped the practice of biblical exegesis and helped lay the foundation for much of medieval and modern Christian thought.

Augustine is remarkable for what he did and extraordinary for what he wrote. If none of his written works had survived, he would still have been a figure to be reckoned with, but his stature would have been more nearly that of some of his contemporaries. However, more than five million words of his writings survive, virtually all displaying the strength and sharpness of his mind (and some limitations of range and learning) and some possessing the rare power to attract and hold the attention of readers in both his day and ours. His distinctive theological style shaped Latin Christianity in a way surpassed only by scripture itself.


"Saint Augustine." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2004. Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service.
15 Mar. 2004 <http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=117170>.


Made a “presbyter” (roughly, a priest, but with less authority than modern clergy of that title) at Hippo in 391, Augustine became bishop there in 395 or 396 and spent the rest of his life in that office.

...

As outlined above, the story of Augustine's life will seem in numerous ways unfamiliar to readers who already know some of it. The story of his early life is exceedingly well known—better known than that of virtually any other Greek or Roman worthy. Augustine's Confessions recounts that early life with immense persuasiveness, and few biographers can resist abridging that story to serve their own purposes.

"Saint Augustine." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2004. Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service.
15 Mar. 2004 <http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=117170>.





From St. Augustine's own writings:



Title of writing: [b]OF THE MORALS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. [DE MORIBUS ECCLESIAE CATHOLICAE.] A.D. 388 [/b]

[i]Bits of writing:[/i]

IT IS LAID DOWN AT THE OUTSET THAT THE CUSTOMS OF THE HOLY LIFE OF THE CHURCH SHOULD BE REFERRED TO THE CHIEF GOOD OF MAN, THAT IS, GOD. WE MUST SEEK AFTER GOD WITH SUPREME AFFECTION; AND THIS DOCTRINE IS SUPPORTED IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH BY THE AUTHORITY OF BOTH TESTAMENTS.

....

Forthwith you would abjure all your silly legends and your unmeaning material imaginations, and with great alacrity, sincere love, and full assurance of faith, would betake yourselves bodily to the shelter of the most holy bosom of the Catholic Church.

...

CHAP. 18.--ONLY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS PERFECT TRUTH ESTABLISHED ON THE HARMONY OF BOTH TESTAMENTS.

....the Christian faith which leads to the summit of wisdom and truth, the attainment of which is the true happy life, nor is it anywhere but in the Catholic teaching. Is not this what the Apostle Paul appears to desire when he says, "For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant unto you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man: that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the height, and length, and breadth, and depth, and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled with all the fullness of God?" (2) Could anything be more plainly expressed?
34. Wake up a little, I beseech you, and see the harmony of both Testaments, making it quite plain and certain what should be the manner of life in our conduct, and to what all things should be referred. To the love of God we are incited by the gospel, when it is said, "Ask, seek, knock;"[3] by Paul, when he says, "That ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend;" (4) by the prophet also, when he says that wisdom can easily be known by those who love it, seek for it, desire it, watch for it, think about it, care for it. The salvation of the mind (5) and the way of happiness is pointed out by the concord of both Scriptures; and yet you choose rather to bark at these things than to obey them. I will tell you in one word what I think. Do you listen to the learned men of the Catholic Church with as peaceable a disposition, and with the same zeal, that I had when for nine years I attended on you: (6) there will be no need of so long a time as that during which you made a fool of me. In a much, a very much, shorter time you will see the difference between truth and vanity.


...

CHAP. 30.--THE CHURCH APOSTROPHISED AS TEACHER OF ALL WISDOM. DOCTRINE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

...

Rightly, then, Catholic Church, most true mother of Christians, dost thou not only teach that God alone, to find whom is the happiest life, must be worshipped in perfect purity and chastity, bringing in no creature as an object of adoration whom we should be required to serve; and from that incorrupt and inviolable eternity to which alone man should be made subject, in cleaving to which alone the rational soul escapes misery, excluding everything made, everything liable to change, everything under the power of time; without confounding what eternity, and truth, and peace itself keeps separate, or separating what a common majesty unites: but thou dost also contain love and charity to our neighbor in such a way, that for all kinds of diseases with which souls are for their sins afflicted, there is found with thee a medicine of prevailing efficacy.

....

CHAP. 32.--PRAISE OF THE CLERGY.

69. There is not, however, such narrowness in the moral excellence of the Catholic Church as that I should limit my praise of it to the life of those here mentioned. For how many bishops have I known most excellent and holy men, how many, presbyters, how many deacons, and ministers of all kinds of the divine sacraments, whose virtue seems to me more admirable and more worthy of commendation on account of the greater difficulty of preserving it amidst the manifold varieties of men, and in this life of turmoil! For they preside over men needing cure as much as over those already cured. The vices of the crowd must be borne with in order that they may be cured, and the plague must be endured before it is subdued. To keep here the best way of life and a mind calm and peaceful is very hard. Here, in a word, we are among people who are learning to live. There they live.

...

76. My advice to you now is this: that you should at least desist from slandering the Catholic Church,

_____________________________________





Dairy - Do you still think it possible that St. Augustine was not Catholic?



It should speak volumes to non-Catholics when so many non-Catholics quote St. Augustine when they learn that St. Augustine was indeed very Catholic and the charges that St. Augustine writes abou the Catholic Church being the ONLY Church with harmony of both Old and New Testaments.


God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,
ironmonk

[Paladin D]

Webster, as in the author of the Webster dictionary?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Mar 15 2004, 11:28 AM'] Webster, as in the author of the Webster dictionary? [/quote]
hehe, no. he's a professional anti-catholic. one of my least favorites too. not that I have "favorite" anti-catholics.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

im curious to hear diary's story now. I think we all more than answered her questions..

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]
The Burden of Proof is on YOU to prove that he was NOT loyal to the pope, not the reverse. Because you can't find much information on his attitudes towards the Bishop of Rome, this only makes our case stronger, Augustine was an apologist and polemicist, if he thought their was something wrong about the Papacy, you would find TONS of writing on it. [/quote]

How could the burden of proof be on me? If that's the case, then the burden of proof is on you to prove that Augustine didn't believe in aliens. He didn't mention that he didn't believe in aliens so are we to assume that he believed in them? The only way you can say this is not the same situation is by showing that the papacy was indeed thriving in those days so that he would have something to be against. The way it is now, there way no papacy so he had nothing to write about. So the burden of proof is on you to at least find things about the papacy or else his silence is the same silence you'd find on not believing in aliens.

[quote]im curious to hear diary's story now. I think we all more than answered her questions..[/quote]

Augustine certainly said the word "Catholic" a lot, I agree. But why didn't you find passages pertaining to the infallibility of the bishop of Rome? He mentions Rome and it's lineage each respectively once that I can find, and both times nothing that couldn't apply to a large and influential church. But even if he thought that Rome was the crux of the unity, it isn't necessarily the cause of it per se.

The CC of today doesn't necessarily fit the conception of Augustine if he believed in one church established by the bishops for the sake of unity. When he mentions Cyprian, he makes note of his humility in that he allows others to disagree and still have communion. That could be that the CC of today is actually the cause of disunity, but then it doesnn't necessarily go against the CC of today either.

Catholic can mean a lot of things. Right now I am trying to figure out Constantine in relation to Nicea and the bishops of Rome in those days. Also trying to figure out the demeanor of the bishops. Since these times prefigured Augustine, I would wonder if anything made Rome more prominent than it should be (not that even in Augustine's day was it that prominent... considering that he didn't make much mention of the bishop of Rome)

Even though we have writings from Cyprian, we don't have any writings from Stephen I as newadvent says. There were some writings attributed to Bishop of Rome Stephen I though from the false decretals, and during the decretal times many writings came up missing so I could conclude that Stephen's writings and any other writings that weaken the CC's claim might have been purposely lost. The church was strong in the day so it's likely, but I admit it's a conspiracy theory at best.

Like I said I am also reading some on the "false decretals" and the "donation of constantine" which came much later in the 800's. (you can find mention of them at newadvent) Before the decretals, it was unclear that the bishop of Rome had any substanitive authority. Look at Aquanis who cites mainly forgeries. The other writings are inconclusive, which also in general seems to be the nature.. my perspective.. of the CC of today so far. To me, silence and ambiguity say more against the authority of the CC.

Edited March 16, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[ironmonk]

[quote name='"dairygirl4u2c"']Augustine certainly said the word "Catholic" a lot, I agree. But why didn't you find passages pertaining to the infallibility of the bishop of Rome? He mentions Rome and it's lineage each respectively once that I can find, and both times nothing that couldn't apply to a large and influential church. But even if he thought that Rome was the crux of the unity, it isn't necessarily the cause of it per se.

The CC of today doesn't necessarily fit the conception of Augustine if he believed in one church established by the bishops for the sake of unity.[/quote]


Wrong again dairy. As we have clearly shown you. Are you ignoring St. Augustine or not reading what he wrote?


[b]Augustine[/b]
"[b]There are many other things which rightly keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church.[/b] The consent of the people and nations keeps me, her [b]authority keeps me,[/b] inaugurated by miracles, nourished in hope, enlarged by love, and established by age. [b]The succession of priests keep me, from the very seat of the apostle Peter [/b](to whom the Lord after his resurrection gave charge to feed his sheep) down to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius]" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5 [A.D. 397]).

"[On this matter of the Pelagians] two councils have already been sent to the [b]Apostolic See [the bishop of Rome], [/b]and from there rescripts too have come. [b]The matter is at an end; would that the error too might be at an end![/b]" (Sermons 131:10 [A.D. 411]).

"If all men throughout the world were such as you most vainly accuse them of having been, what has the chair of the Roman church done to you, in which Peter sat, and in which Anastasius sits today?" (Against the Letters of Petilani 2:118 [A.D. 402]).

"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church’ . . . [Matt. 16:18]. Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement, Clement by Anacletus, Anacletus by Evaristus . . . " (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).

"Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear ‘I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven’" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).

"Some things are said which seem to relate especially to the apostle Peter, and yet are not clear in their meaning unless referred to the Church, which he is acknowledged to have represented in a figure on account of the primacy which he bore among the disciples. Such is ‘I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,’ and other similar passages. In the same way, Judas represents those Jews who were Christ’s enemies" (Commentary on Psalm 108 1 [A.D. 415]).

"Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter?" (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).


"The matter is at an end" because the Apostolic See settled it. They settled it because St. Augustine believed JUST AS WE KEEP TELLING YOU.



How are you to draw any [b]intelligent[/b] conclusions unless you study?




[b]2 Tim 3:1 [/b]
1 But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days.
[b]2 [/b]People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious,
[b]3 [/b]callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good,
[b]4 [/b]traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
[b]5 [/b][b]as they make a pretense of religion but deny its power. Reject them[/b].
[b]6 [/b]For some of these slip into homes and make captives of women weighed down by sins, led by various desires,
[b]7 [/b][b]always trying to learn but never able to reach a knowledge of the truth.[/b]
[b]8 [/b][b]Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so they also oppose the truth--people of depraved mind, unqualified in the faith. [/b]
[b]9 [/b][b]But they will not make further progress, for their foolishness will be plain to all, as it was with those two.[/b]



God Bless & I pray you open up to truth,
ironmonk

[CatholicAndFanatical]

how much more plain could we say it.


[quote]
When he mentions Cyprian, he makes note of his humility in that he allows others to disagree and still have communion.
[/quote]

Just because someone disagrees with the Holy Church doesnt make them not in union. Just as long as they dont go into schism and deny the Authority of Rome and its Teachings.

Were allowed to disagree, but must still obey. This is called obedience.


[quote]
There were some writings attributed to Bishop of Rome Stephen I though from the false decretals, and during the decretal times many writings came up missing so I could conclude that Stephen's writings and any other writings that weaken the CC's claim might have been purposely lost. The church was strong in the day so it's likely, but I admit it's a conspiracy theory at best.
[/quote]

You must also remember that sometime before Constantine Christianity was illegal and people were killed for even mentioning Eucharist or Mass. Alot of people were martyrd in those days, Churchs raided and destroyed. So they moved into the Catecombs underground.

The Church has no reason to hide so called 'false' decretals since it is clearly the only Church that was around then, and that is around now that has the Seat of Peter, which is in Succession even today.


Heres a refresher of some important quotes from Augustine that you prolly didnt read from ironmonks post:

CHAP. 18.--ONLY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS PERFECT TRUTH ESTABLISHED ON THE HARMONY OF BOTH TESTAMENTS.


....the Christian faith which leads to the summit of wisdom and truth, the attainment of which is the true happy life, nor is it anywhere but in the Catholic teaching.


CHAP. 30.--THE CHURCH APOSTROPHISED AS TEACHER OF ALL WISDOM. DOCTRINE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

...

Rightly, then, [b]Catholic Church, most true mother of Christians[/b], dost thou not only teach that God alone, to find whom is the happiest life, must be worshipped in perfect purity and chastity, bringing in no creature as an object of adoration whom we should be required to serve; and from that incorrupt and inviolable eternity to which alone man should be made subject, in cleaving to which alone the rational soul escapes misery, excluding everything made, everything liable to change, everything under the power of time; without confounding what eternity, and truth, and peace itself keeps separate, or separating what a common majesty unites: but thou dost also contain love and charity to our neighbor in such a way, that for all kinds of diseases with which souls are for their sins afflicted, there is found with thee a medicine of prevailing efficacy.


Also, show me another Church during the time of Augustine, that had a Holy See, Bishops and Priests. On top of that, show me another Church where they can trace their Bishops back to Peter.


Why do we think that the Catholic mentioned by Augustine was the Catholic Church today? Simple..because we have held the same Teachings since then, we can trace ourselves back to Peter without breakage. We have Bishops that can be traced back to Peter we have Priests. No other Christian church in the world has this except the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

why fight it?

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Mar 16 2004, 11:57 AM'] The only way you can say this is not the same situation is by showing that the papacy was indeed thriving in those days so that he would have something to be against. The way it is now, there way no papacy so he had nothing to write about. So the burden of proof is on you to at least find things about the papacy or else his silence is the same silence you'd find on not believing in aliens. [/quote]
after everything we've posted here you still don't see evidence of the papacy in augustine's day? are you reading what we are providing for you? our argument is definitely NOT one of silence, as it has been proven rather explicitly that the papacy existed in augustine's day (and actually LONG before) and that augustine believed in it. he was a bishop for cryin out loud.

if even this is yet not enough, i provide the following:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[b]Pope Clement I[/b]
"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [[b]A.D. 80[/b]]).

[b]Hermas[/b]
"Therefore shall you [Hermas] write two little books and send one to Clement [Bishop of Rome] and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty" (The Shepherd 2:4:3 [[b]A.D. 80[/b]]).

[b]Ignatius of Antioch[/b]
"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [[b]A.D. 110[/b]]).

"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1).

[b]Dionysius of Corinth[/b]
"For from the beginning it has been your custom to do good to all the brethren in various ways and to send contributions to all the churches in every city. . . . This custom your blessed Bishop Soter has not only preserved, but is augmenting, by furnishing an abundance of supplies to the saints and by urging with consoling words, as a loving father his children, the brethren who are journeying" (Letter to Pope Soter in Eusebius, Church History 4:23:9 [[b]A.D. 170[/b]]).

"Today we have observed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your letter [Pope Soter]. Whenever we do read it [in church], we shall be able to profit thereby, as also we do when we read the earlier letter written to us by Clement" (ibid., 4:23:11).

[b]Hegesippus[/b]
"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord" (Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [[b]A.D. 180[/b]]).

[b]Irenaeus[/b]
"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [[b]A.D. 189[/b]]).

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:2).

"Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time" (ibid., 3:3:4).

"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?" (ibid., 3:4:1).

"[I]t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth" (ibid., 4:26:2).

"The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere" (ibid., 4:33:8).

[b]Tertullian[/b]
"[The apostles] founded churches in every city, from which all the other churches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, that they may become churches. Indeed, it is on this account only that they will be able to deem themselves apostolic, as being the offspring of apostolic churches. Every sort of thing must necessarily revert to its original for its classification. Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so great, comprise but the one primitive Church, [founded] by the apostles, from which they all [spring]. In this way, all are primitive, and all are apostolic, while they are all proved to be one in unity" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 20 [[b]A.D. 200[/b]]).

"[W]hat it was which Christ revealed to them [the apostles] can, as I must here likewise prescribe, properly be proved in no other way than by those very churches which the apostles founded in person, by declaring the gospel to them directly themselves . . . If then these things are so, it is in the same degree manifest that all doctrine which agrees with the apostolic churches—those molds and original sources of the faith must be reckoned for truth, as undoubtedly containing that which the churches received from the apostles, the apostles from Christ, [and] Christ from God. Whereas all doctrine must be prejudged as false which savors of contrariety to the truth of the churches and apostles of Christ and God. It remains, then, that we demonstrate whether this doctrine of ours, of which we have now given the rule, has its origin in the tradition of the apostles, and whether all other doctrines do not ipso facto proceed from falsehood" (ibid., 21).

"But if there be any [heresies] which are bold enough to plant [their origin] in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [their first] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men—a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles. For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter" (ibid., 32).

"But should they even effect the contrivance [of composing a succession list for themselves], they will not advance a step. For their very doctrine, after comparison with that of the apostles [as contained in other churches], will declare, by its own diversity and contrariety, that it had for its author neither an apostle nor an apostolic man; because, as the apostles would never have taught things which were self-contradictory" (ibid.).

"Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic Church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith" (ibid.).

[b]Cyprian of Carthage[/b]
"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]). ... On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [[b]A.D. 251[/b]]).

"Cyprian to [Pope] Cornelius, his brother. Greeting. . . . We decided to send and are sending a letter to you from all throughout the province [where I am] so that all our colleagues might give their decided approval and support to you and to your communion, that is, to both the unity and the charity of the Catholic Church" (Letters 48:1, 3 [[b]A.D. 253[/b]]).

"Cyprian to Antonian, his brother. Greeting ... You wrote ... that I should forward a copy of the same letter to our colleague [Pope] Cornelius, so that, laying aside all anxiety, he might at once know that you held communion with him, that is, with the Catholic Church" (ibid., 55[52]:1).

"Cornelius was made bishop by the decision of God and of his Christ, by the testimony of almost all the clergy, by the applause of the people then present, by the college of venerable priests and good men ... when the place of Fabian, which is the place of Peter, the dignity of the sacerdotal chair, was vacant. Since it has been occupied both at the will of God and with the ratified consent of all of us, whoever now wishes to become bishop must do so outside [the Church]. For he cannot have ecclesiastical rank who does not hold to the unity of the Church" (ibid., 55[52]:8).

"With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (ibid., 59:14).

"[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without. For if she is with [the heretic] Novatian, she was not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop [of Rome], Fabian, by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the priesthood the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the Church in any way" (Letters 69[75]:3 [[b]A.D. 253[/b]]).

[b]Firmilian[/b]
"[Pope] Stephen ... boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid [Matt. 16:18]. ... Stephen ... announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter" (collected in Cyprian’s Letters 74[75]:17 [[b]A.D. 253[/b]]).

[b]The Martyrs of Lyons[/b]
"And when a dissension arose about these said people [the Montanists], the brethren in Gaul once more . . . [sent letters] to the brethren in Asia and Phrygia and, moreover to Eleutherius, who was then [A.D. 175] bishop of the Romans, negotiating for the peace of the churches" (Eusebius, Church History 5:3:4 [[b]A.D. 312[/b]])

"And the same martyrs too commended Irenaeus, already at that time [A.D. 175] a presbyter of the community of Lyons, to the said bishop of Rome, rendering abundant testimony to the man, as the following expressions show: ‘Once more and always we pray that you may rejoice in God, Pope Eleutherius. This letter we have charged our brother and companion Irenaeus to convey to you, and we beg you to receive him as zealous for the covenant of Christ’" (ibid., 5:4:1–2).

[b]Pope Julius I[/b]
"[The] judgment [concerning Athanasius] ought to have been made, not as it was, but according to the ecclesiastical canon. It behooved all of you to write us so that the justice of it might be seen as emanating from all. ... Are you ignorant that the custom has been to write first to us and then for a just decision to be passed from this place [Rome]? If, then, any such suspicion rested upon the bishop there [Athanasius of Alexandria], notice of it ought to have been written to the church here. But now, after having done as they pleased, they want to obtain our concurrence, although we never condemned him. Not thus are the constitutions of Paul, not thus the traditions of the Fathers. This is another form of procedure, and a novel practice. ... What I write about this is for the common good. For what we have heard from the blessed apostle Peter, these things I signify to you" (Letter on Behalf of Athanasius [[b]A.D. 341[/b]], in Athanasius, Apology Against the Arians 20–35).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

how much more proof do u need?

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited March 18, 2004 by phatcatholic

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' date='Mar 17 2004, 09:00 AM'] how much more plain could we say it. [/quote]
I think this is my favorite quote in this entire thread. So simple, so true....

[phatcatholic]

dairygirl, are you still not convinced?

[dairygirl4u2c]

In regards to his belief in the papacy, no. In regards to his belief in the last supper, I withhold my stance.

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=9101"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=9101[/url]

I wonder if those quotes are as deceiving as the papacy quotes. Anyway, I looked up the (decent) supposed papcy quotes in context, and here is what I've found. Bear with me!

The most decieving quotation is this one:
[quote]"If all men throughout the world were such as you most vainly accuse them of having been, what has the chair of the Roman church done to you, in which Peter sat, and in which Anastasius sits today?" (Against the Letters of Petilani 2:118 [A.D. 402]).[/quote]
[quote]
CHAP. 51
117. PETILIANUS said: "If you wretched men claim for yourselves a seat, as we said before, you assuredly have that one of which the prophet and psalmist David speaks as being the seat of the scornful(3) For to you it is rightly left, seeing that the holy cannot sit therein.'
118. AUGUSTIN answered: Here again you do not see that this is no kind of argument, but empty abuse. For this is what I said a little while ago, You utter the words of the law, but take no heed against whom you utter them; just as the devil uttered the words of the law, but failed to perceive to whom he uttered them. He wished to thrust down our Head, who was presently to ascend on high; but you wish to reduce to a small fraction the body of that same [b]Head which is dispersed throughout the entire world[/b]. Certainly you yourself said a little time before that we know the law, and speak in legal terms, but blush in our deeds. Thus much indeed you say without a proof of anything; but even though you were to prove it of some men, you would not be entitled to assert it of these others. However,[b] if all men throughout all the world were of the character which you most vainly charge them with, what has the chair done to you of the Roman Church, in which Peter sat, and which Anastasius fills to-day; [B][u][i]or the chair of the Church of Jerusalem, in which James once sat, and in which John sits today[/i][/u][/b], with which we are[b] united in catholic unity[/b], and from which you have severed yourselves by your mad fury?[/B] Why do you call the apostolic chair a seat of the scornful? If it is on account of the men whom you believe to use the words of the law without performing it, do you find that our Lord Jesus Christ was moved by the Pharisees, of whom He says, "They say, and do not," to do any despite to the seat in which they sat? Did He not commend the seat of Moses, and maintain the honor of the seat, while He convicted [b]those[/b] that sat in it? For He says, "[b]They[/b] sit in Moses' seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."(1) If you were to think of these things, you would not, on account of men whom you calumniate, do despite to the apostolic seat, in which you have no share. But what else is conduct like yours but ignorance of what to say, combined with want of power to abstain from evil-speaking?[/quote]

I think that one is self explanatory. He doesn't just point out the church of rome; he also mentions the other large church as well. And catholic.com convieniently forgot to mention that. The point Augustine was trying to make was those churches were reliable due to their succession and antiquity. Also note that he paralled the seats of Moses with Peter meaning that there are many seats to the chair of Peter as we will see more clearly.

As for the another quotes. There is no reason for the context of this quote. But I wanted you all to know that I did look it up in context.

[quote]"There are many other things which rightly keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church. The consent of the people and nations keeps me, her authority keeps me, inaugurated by miracles, nourished in hope, enlarged by love, and established by age. The succession of priests keep me, from the very seat of the apostle Peter (to whom the Lord after his resurrection gave charge to feed his sheep) down to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius]" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5 [A.D. 397]).[/quote]

[quote]
CHAP. 4.--PROOFS OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH.
5. For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life, so as to know it, in the scantiest measure, deed, because they are but men, still without any uncertainty (since the rest of the multitude derive their entire security not from acuteness of intellect, but from simplicity of faith,)--[b]not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The [u]succession of priests[/u] keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present [u]episcopate[/u][/b]. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should, though from the slowness of our understanding, or the small attainment of our life, the truth may not yet fully disclose itself. But with you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me, the promise of truth is the only thing that comes into play. Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the Catholic Church; but if there is only a promise without any fulfillment, no one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion in which almost all that you believe is contained. For in that unhappy time when we read it we were in your opinion enlightened. The epistle begins thus:--" Manichaeus, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the providence of God the Father. These are wholesome words from the perennial and living fountain.; Now, if you please, patiently give heed to my inquiry. I donor believe Manichaeus to be an apostle of Christ. Do not, I beg of you, be enraged and begin to curse. For you know that it is my rule to believe none of your statements without consideration. Therefore I ask, who is this Manichaeus? You will reply, An apostle of Christ. I do not believe it. Now you are at a loss what to say or do; for you promised to give knowledge of the truth, and here you are forcing me to believe what I have no knowledge of. Perhaps you will read the gospel to me, and will attempt to find there a testimony to Manichaeus. But should you meet with a person not yet believing the gospel, how would you reply to him were he to say, I do not believe? [b][i]For my part[/i], I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. [/b] (this doesn't prove either of our my points, .. I just wanted to let you know that I am aware!) So when those on whose authority I have consented to believe in the gospel tell me not to believe in Manichaeus, how can I but consent? Take your choice. If you say, Believe the Catholics: their advice to me is to put no faith in you; so that, believing them, I am precluded from believing you;--If you say, Do not believe the Catholics: you cannot fairly use the gospel in bringing me to faith in Manichaeus; for it was at the command of the Catholics that I believed the gospel;--Again, if you say, You were right in believing the Catholics when they praised the gospel, but wrong in believing their vituperation of Manichaeus: do you think me such a fool as to believe or not to believe as you like or dislike, without any reason? [b]It is therefore fairer and safer by far for me[/b], having in one instance put faith in the Catholics, not to go over to you, till, instead of bidding me believe, you make me understand something in the clearest and most open manner. To convince me, then, you must put aside the gospel. If you keep to the gospel, I will keep to those who commanded me to believe the gospel; and, in obedience to them, I will not believe you at all. But if haply you should succeed in finding in the gospel an incontrovertible testimony to the apostleship of Manichaeus, you will weaken my regard for the authority of the Catholics who bid me not to believe you; and the effect of that will be, that I shall no longer be able to believe the gospel either, for it was through the Catholics that I got my faith in it; and so, whatever you bring from the gospel will no longer have any weight with me. Wherefore, if no clear proof of the apostleship of Manichaeus is found in the gospel, I will believe the Catholics rather than you. But if you read thence some passage clearly in favor of Manichaeus, I will believe neither them nor you: not them, for they lied to me about you; nor you, for you quote to me that Scripture which I had believed on the authority of those liars. But far be it that I should not believe the gospel; for believing it, I find no way of believing you too. For the names of the apostles, as there recorded, (2) do not include the name of Manichaeus. And who the successor of Christ's betrayer was we read in the Acts of the Apostles; (3) which book I must needs believe if I believe the gospel, since both writings alike Catholic authority commends to me. The same book contains the well-known narrative of the calling and apostleship of Paul. (4) Read me now, if you can, in the gospel where Manichaeus is called an apostle, or in any other book in which I have professed to believe. Will you read the passage where the Lord promised the Holy Spirit as a Paraclete, to the apostles? Concerning which passage, behold how many and how great are the things that restrain and deter me from believing in Manichaeus.[/quote]

Augustine frequently mentions how Peter represented the Church. If you look up episcopate even in the dictionary you will see that it means not only office of a bishop, but also a collection of bishops. As paralleled with the Moses quotes, many bishops held to their seats.

[quote]"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church’ . . . [Matt. 16:18]. Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement, Clement by Anacletus, Anacletus by Evaristus . . . " (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).[/quote]

[quote]LETTER LIII
TO GENEROSUS, OUR MOST LOVED AND HONOURABLE BROTHER, FORTUNATUS ALYPIUS AND AUGUSTIN SEND GREETING IN THE LORD.

CHAP. I. -- 1. Since you were pleased to acquaint us with the letter sent to you by a Donatist presbyter, although, with the spirit of a true Catholic, you regarded it with contempt, nevertheless, to aid you in seeking his welfare if his folly be not incurable, we beg you to forward to him the following reply. He wrote that an angel had enjoined him to declare to you the episcopal succession of [b]the Christianity of your town[/b]; to you, forsooth, who hold the Christianity not of your own town only, nor of Africa only, but of the whole world, the Christianity which has been published, and is now published to all nations. This proves that they think it a small matter that they themselves are not ashamed of being cut off, and are taking no measures, while they may, to be engrafted anew; they are not content unless they do their utmost to cut others off, and bring them to share their own fate, as withered branches fit for the flames. Wherefore, even if you had yourself been visited by that angel whom he affirms to have appeared to him, -- a statement which we regard as a cunning fiction; and if the angel had said to you the very words which he, on the warrant of the alleged command, repeated to you, -- even in that case it would have been your duty to remember the words of the apostle: "Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." For to you it was proclaimed by the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, that His "gospel shall be preached unto all nations, and then shall the end come." To you it has moreover been proclaimed by the writings of the prophets and of the apostles, that the promises were given to Abraham and to his seed, which is Christ? when God said unto him: "In thy seed shall all nations of the earth be blessed." Having then such promises, if an angel from heaven were to say to thee, "Let go the Christianity of the whole earth, and cling to the faction of Donatus, the episcopal succession of which is set forth in a letter of their bishop in your town," he ought to be accursed in your estimation; because he would be endeavouring to cut you off from the whole Church, and thrust you into a small party, and make you forfeit your interest in the promises of God.
2. [b]For if the lineal succession of bishops is to be taken into account, with how much more certainty and benefit to the Church do we reckon back till we reach Peter himself, to whom, as bearing in a figure the whole Church, the Lord said: "Upon this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it !" The successor of Peter was Linus, and his successors in unbroken continuity were these: -- Clement, Anacletus, Evaristus, Alexander, Sixtus, Telesphorus, Iginus, Anicetus, Pius, Soter, Eleutherius, Victor, Zephirinus, Calixtus, Urbanus, Pontianus, Antherus, Fabianus, Cornelius, Lucius, Stephanus, Xystus, Dionysius, Felix, Eutychianus, Gaius, Marcellinus, Marcellus, Eusebius, Miltiades, Sylvester, Marcus, Julius, Liberius, Damasus, and Siricius, whose successor is the present Bishop Anastasius.[u] In this order of succession no Donatist bishop is found.[/u] [/b]But, reversing the natural course of things, [b]the Donatists sent to Rome[/b] from Africa an ordained bishop, who, putting himself at the head of a few Africans in the great metropolis, gave some notoriety to the name of "mountain men," or Cutzupits, by which they were known.
3. Now, even although some traditor had in the course of these centuries, through inadvertence, obtained a place in that order of bishops, reaching from Peter himself to Anastasius, who now occupies [b]that see[/b], -- this fact would do no harm to the Church and to Christians having no share in the guilt of another; for the Lord, providing against such a case, says, concerning officers in the Church who are wicked: "All whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." Thus the stability of the hope of the faithful is secured, inasmuch as being fixed, not in man, but in the Lord, it never can be swept away by the raging of impious schism; whereas they themselves are swept away who read in the. Holy Scriptures the names of churches to which the apostles wrote, and in which they have no bishop. For what could more clearly prove their perversity and their folly, than their saying to their clergy, when they read these letters, "Peace be with thee," at the very time that they are themselves disjoined from the peace of those churches to which the letters were originally written?

CHAP. II. -- 4. [b]Lest, however, he should [u]congratulate himself too much on the succession of bishops in Constantina, your own city[/u][/b], read to him the records of proceedings before Munatius Felix, the resident Flamen [heathen priest], who was governor of your city in the consulship of Diocletian for the eighth time, and Maximian for the seventh, on the eleventh day before the calends of June. By these records it is proved that the bishop Paulus was a traditor; the fact being that Sylvanus was then one of his sub-deacons, and, along with him, produced and surrendered certain things belonging to the Lord's house, which had been most carefully concealed, namely a box and a lamp of silver, upon seeing which a certain [b]Victor[/b] (Victor's attitude is important because of the easter controversy when he was going to excommunicate some peeps... though he's not the only person who excommunicates peeps) is reported to have said, "You would have been put to death if you had not found these." Your Donatist priest makes great account of this Sylvanus, this clearly convicted traditor, in the letter which he writes you, mentioning him as then ordained to the office of bishop by the Primate Secundus of Tigisis. Let them keep their proud tongues silent, let them admit the charges which may truly be brought against themselves, and not utter foolish calumnies against others. Read to him also, if he permits it, the ecclesiastical records of the proceedings of this same Secundus of Tigisis in the house of Urbanus Donatus, in which he remitted to God, as judge, men who confessed themselves to have been traditors -- Donatus of Masculi, Marinns of Aquae Tibilitanae, Donatus of Calama, with whom as his colleagues, though they were confessed traditors, he ordained their bishop Sylvanus, of whose guilt in the same matter I have given the history above. Read to him also the proceedings before Zenophilus, a man of consular rank, in the course of which a certain deacon of theirs, Nundinarius, being angry with [b]Sylvanus for having excommunicated him[/b], brought all these facts into court, proving them incontestably by authentic documents, and the questioning of witnesses, and the reading of public records and many letters.
5. There are many other things which you might read in his hearing, if he is disposed not to dispute angrily, but to listen prudently, such as: the [b]petition of the Donatists to Constantine, begging him [/b]to send from Gaul bishops who should settle this controversy which divided the African bishops; the Acts recording [b]what took place in Rome[/b], when the case was taken up and [b]decided by the [u]bishops[/u] [/b]whom he sent thither: also you might read in other letters how the Emperor aforesaid states that they had made a complaint to him against the decision of their peers -- the bishops, namely, whom he had sent to Rome; how he appointed other bishops to try the case over again at Arles; how [b]they appealed from that tribunal also [i]to the Emperor [u]again[/u][/i][/b]; how at last he himself investigated the matter; and how he most emphatically declares that they were vanquished by the innocence of Caecilianus. Let him listen to these things if he be willing, and he will be silent and desist from plotting against the truth.
CHAP. III. -- 6. [b]We rely, however, not so much on these documents as on the Holy Scriptures[/b], wherein a dominion extending to the ends of the earth among all nations is promised as the heritage of Christ, separated from which by their sinful schism they reproach us with the crimes which belong to the chaff in the Lord's threshing floor, which must be permitted to remain mixed with the good grain until the end come, until the whole be winnowed in the final judgment. From which it is manifest that, whether these charges be true or false, they do not belong to the Lord's wheat, which must grow until the end of the world throughout the whole field, i.e. the whole earth; as we know, not by the testimony of a false angel such as confirmed your correspondent in his error, but from the words of the Lord in the Gospel. And because these unhappy Donatists have brought the reproach of many false and empty accusations against Christians who were blameless, but who are throughout the world mingled with the chaff or tares, i.e. with Christians unworthy of the name, therefore God has, in righteous retribution, appointed that they should, by their universal Council, condemn as schismatics the Maximianists, because they bad condemned Primianus, and baptized while not in communion with Primianus, and rebaptized those whom he had baptized, and then after a short interval should, under the coercion of Optatus the minion of Gildo, reinstate in the honours of their office two of these, the bishops Felicianus of Musti and Praetextatus of Assuri, and acknowledge the baptism of all whom they, while under sentence and excommunicated, had baptized. If, therefore, they are not defiled by communion with the men thus restored again to their office, -- men whom with their own mouth they had condemned as wicked and impious, and whom they compared to those first heretics whom the earth swallowed up alive, -- let them at last awake and consider how great is their blindness and folly in pronouncing the whole world defiled by unknown crimes of Africans, and the heritage of Christ (which according to the promise has been shown unto all nations) destroyed through the sins of these Africans by the maintenance of communion with them; while they refuse to acknowledge themselves to be destroyed and defiled by communicating with men whose crimes they had both known and condemned.
7. Wherefore, since the Apostle Paul says in another place, that even Satan transforms himself into an angel of light, and that therefore it is not strange that his servants should assume the guise of ministers of righteousness: if your correspondent did indeed see an angel teaching him error, and desiring to separate Christians from the Catholic unity, he has met with an angel of Satan transforming himself into an angel of light. If, however, he has lied to you, and has seen no such vision, he is himself a servant of Satan, assuming the guise of a minister of righteousness. And yet, if he be not incorrigibly obstinate and perverse, he may, by considering all the things now stated, be delivered both from misleading others, and from being himself misled. For, embracing the opportunity which you have given, we have met him without any rancor, remembering in regard to him the words of the apostle: "The servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient; in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." If, therefore, we have said anything severe, let him know that it arises not from the bitterness of controversy, but from love vehemently desiring his return to the right path. May you live safe in Christ, most beloved and honorable brother!
[/quote]

It's interesting that Sylvanus excommunicated peeps and wasn't a pope. Victor (whose rash attitude is shown here) didn't exommunicate anyone because of Ireneus. But even had he had excommunicted someone, it's no more than sylvanus did, and no more than the leading church would do.

Also we see that Augustine was showing the apostolicity of Rome, to whom he is appealing, and contrasting it with this dudes church. I'm sure he'd appeal to Rome if it was large and influential. And take the next quote to see where councils met.


This next one is almost the most compelling.

[quote]"[On this matter of the Pelagians] two councils have already been sent to the Apostolic See [the bishop of Rome], and from there rescripts too have come. The matter is at an end; would that the error too might be at an end!" (Sermons 131:10 [A.D. 411]). [/quote]

[quote]10. What then was said of the Jews, the same altogether do we see in
these men now. "They have a zeal of God: I hear them record that they have
a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."[4] What is, "not according
to knowledge"? "For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and wishing to
establish their own, they have not submitted themselves unto the
righteousness of God."[5] My Brethren, share with me in my sorrow. When ye
find such as these, do not hide them; be there no such misdirected[6] mercy
in you; by all means, when ye find such, hide them not. Convince the
gainsayers, and those who resist, bring to us. [b][B]For already have [i][u]two
councils[/u][/i] [/b]on this question been sent to the [b]Apostolic see[/b]; and rescripts
also have come from thence. [/B]The question has been brought to an issue;
would that their error may sometime be brought to an issue too! Therefore
do we advise that they may take heed, we teach that they may be instructed,
we pray that they may be changed. Let us turn to the Lord, etc.[/quote]

That Apostolic see is somewhat compelling but the fact that there were councils kinda cancels it out. It doesn't disprove or prove the papacy. I don't think this one word can prove the papacy or is enough to say it was in Augustine's mind. But maybe.. maybe.. we can say that Rome was the center of the church. To this I'll need to look into Nicea and COnstantine. But even if it was the center without these guys, it doesn't really prove anything.

I don't deny that Augustine was a Catholic for the succession and for the unity. And apparently matters were resloved with councils. It [i]would[/i] be compelling if the bishop of Rome was the final authority.... but we have no evidence of this.


I also havea quote on the keys that I will add in a bit.

So in the end, Augustine is Catholic, but not Roman Catholic. He is a memeber of the CC bc it is more likely to be true than any other christianities. If succession is to be a factor, I would say the Eastern Orthodox are just as much in line with the CC of that day as the CC of today is. There are no quotes that are much compelling and considering this, and while these quotes don't necessarily disprove the CC, to argue for the papacy, more than Rome being just large and influential, is to argue from silence. The CC is on the offensive right now so you have to do more than defend it.

Edited March 20, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Aloysius]

oooo no! he just taught APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY and APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION, but because that can't DEFINITIVELY SHOW THE PAPACY you dismiss any of it's catholicity?


would someone show this girl Augustine believed in the primacy of Peter! because that quote was just showing how Anastasius was Peter's successor and John is Jame's successor. but of course since Peter has primacy over James Anastasius by default has primacy over John.