Augustine

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Mar 10 2004, 12:43 PM'] .... [/quote]
huh?

[crossingstandrewspass]

I think it would also be helpful for you to know that St. Augustine was a convert to Roman Catholicism. He adopted it after tonnes of prayer from his mother. Eventually, the prayer interceeded and he became Catholic. I have the [i]Confessions of St. Augustine[/i]. I'll look through it for any of this.

Sincerely,
In Christ,
Andy

[CatholicAndFanatical]

How could you possibly read St Augustine and get anything other than the fact that He was a CATHOLIC Bishop loyal to the Pope. I have no idea what you are trying to get at diary except that you are grabbing at straws just trying to find a reason to NOT believe.

Do you really think if St Augustine wasnt a devout Catholic the Church would honestly make him a doctor of the Church and a Saint?

Go grab his 'Confessions' book, i've read it and its very informative. You wont find anything in there that is against the Catholic Church.


Here is another quote from Augustine that shows his loyalty to the Pope

[quote]
"[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" [b](Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 4:5 [A.D. 397])[/b].
[/quote]


Not sure if anyone's already posted this, it came from Catholic.com.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Thanks CatholicAndFanatical! That quote is a real beauty. I need to read that treatise of his.
I read the City of God last year and recommend that book to anyone and everyone. He covers so many different things and has sweet insights all over the place.

Anyway, here are some quotes from some of my books. I hope these aren't on catholic.com because I took the time to type them out.

[quote]
"Peter, who had confessed Him the Son of God, and in that confession had been called the rock upon which the Church should be build." - Augustine, In Ps. lxix, n. 4.

"Number the bishops from the see of Peter itself. And in that order of Fathers see who succeeded whom [[i]Augustine recorded a list of Peter's successors[/i]]. That is the rock against which the gates of hell do not prevail." - Augustine, Psalmus contr. Partem Donati, str 18.
[i]This was part of a hymn Augustine wrote to be memorized and sung in the Churches as an antidote against the Donatist heresy. His list of the popes is in letter 53 to Fortunatus I believe.[/i]


"on account of the primacy which he [Peter] had among the disciples." - Ennar. In Ps. 108 i.

"the first and chief in the order of the Apostles." - Sermon 76, 3

"To Peter first, because among the Apostles Peter is first." - Sermon 295, 4

"The Roman Church, in which the Primacy of the Apostolic See has always been in force." - Epist. xlii

"Pastoral vigilance is common to all of us who exercise the episcopal office, although you have the preeminence on a loftier summit." - Letter i to Pope Boniface

"To be unwilling to give the primacy [primas] to the Roman Church either stems from the utmost impiety or from rash arrogance." - De Util. Cred. c. 17

[/quote]

Edited March 12, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[ironmonk]

Guys,

When someone is sitting next to you and asking you the same question every 30 seconds, and you tell them the same answer each time....

After an hour, it's going to be obvious that they are not listening or don't care what you have to say.

Then you have to be stern, blunt, bold, whatever you want to call it - but it is not uncharitable. What is uncharitable is that the person that keeps asking the same question and doesn't listen or pay attention to you for the past hour. It's obivious speaking in a normal tone does not work, so it's time to change tone or walk away from the conversation.

Then again... some people have serious learning disabilities.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[God Conquers]

Again, also, as for lack of "evidence" that he was loyal to the pope.

He is a bishop and a saint. The Burden of Proof is on YOU to prove that he was NOT loyal to the pope, not the reverse. Because you can't find much information on his attitudes towards the Bishop of Rome, this only makes our case stronger, Augustine was an apologist and polemicist, if he thought their was something wrong about the Papacy, you would find TONS of writing on it.

[crossingstandrewspass]

Wow... an attempt to prove that St. Augustine wasn't loyal to the Pope? How incredibly interesting. I'm not even Catholic and I know that he was the Bishop of Hippo and I've even read his "[i]Confessions[/i]" book.


In Christ,
Andy

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 12 2004, 12:42 PM'] Guys,

When someone is sitting next to you and asking you the same question every 30 seconds, and you tell them the same answer each time....

After an hour, it's going to be obvious that they are not listening or don't care what you have to say.

Then you have to be stern, blunt, bold, whatever you want to call it - but it is not uncharitable. What is uncharitable is that the person that keeps asking the same question and doesn't listen or pay attention to you for the past hour. It's obivious speaking in a normal tone does not work, so it's time to change tone or walk away from the conversation.

Then again... some people have serious learning disabilities.

God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
I don't know ironmonk.. I think you have a certain point, but I still think that dairygirl is sincere and we shouldn't blow her off and we especially shouldn't be mean.
Peace.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Mar 12 2004, 12:51 PM'] Again, also, as for lack of "evidence" that he was loyal to the pope.

He is a bishop and a saint. The Burden of Proof is on YOU to prove that he was NOT loyal to the pope, not the reverse. Because you can't find much information on his attitudes towards the Bishop of Rome, this only makes our case stronger, Augustine was an apologist and polemicist, if he thought their was something wrong about the Papacy, you would find TONS of writing on it. [/quote]
Great point! Thanks.

[God Conquers]

Well this was getting ridiculous. If a the Secretary of State writes papers on foreign policy for the government, do we need evidence in them that he respects the authority of the President to have final say on all matters of foriegn relations? No, it is assumed.

[Dave]

People who claim Augustine believed as a Protestant and not as a Catholic have surely not read his writings. Rather, they take little snippets here and there and claim they mean something they don't.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I totally agree guys, I've read enough Augustine to know that. But some people read mainly anti-Catholic stuff so they need to be shown that Augustine was Catholic with little quotes and things. I don't think it's a big deal.
Peace.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Mar 13 2004, 12:27 AM'] I don't know ironmonk.. I think you have a certain point, but I still think that dairygirl is sincere and we shouldn't blow her off and we especially shouldn't be mean.
Peace. [/quote]
I'm not saying be mean. I'm not saying blow her off.

She is either not reading a thing we write or she has difficulty with reading comprehension.

Maybe keep replies to under 300 words might help.... stick to one small point at a time. Be simple and to the point.... is what I'm saying.

If she does not have a reading comprehension problem and is reading it, then we are wasting our time. We are taught not to throw pearls among swine; in other words, don't waste your time with the obstinate people. She would then fall under the jack chick classification. Which, it would be good to answer only for the sake of the lurkers reading it.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote]She is either not reading a thing we write or she has difficulty with reading comprehension.[/quote]


I suppose I have a different take on things. I don't see the need to go that far and talk about casting pearls before swine and bring up Jack Chick, etc.. Maybe you don't mean it this way but honestly this kind of talk strikes me as rude. The way I see it dairygirl is looking into Catholicism and she kind of has her own style which can seem obstinate but I don't think thats what it is. My experience so far in discussion issues with dairygirl has not at all led me to your conclusions. But my experience is not the same as yours so I respect how you feel about it.
Peace.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

well, I'll take both your opinions and use them. I understand fully where ironmonk is coming from. When we show proof of something they ask, then the next thread they ask the same question, or just flat out says were wrong and provides no proof to show were wrong, it gets a little agrivating.

However, some people just have hard heads and even harder hearts. They just need a little more pushing than others. I would still answer any questions given to me, even if its asked multiple times.

To question is good. But at least respect the answers you get.

I think thats the #1 issue with most prots on this board. They ask great questions, then tell us were wrong when we answer them without even researching the idea and understanding our viewpoint.

But im still anxious to hear diary's thought now that we answered her question. What does it matter if you dont have every single quote from Augustine? The books we mentioned would prove that he was indeed a Catholic and the Bishop of Hippo.


Pax