Should Women Be Included In The Draft?

[picchick]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1686159' date='Oct 25 2008, 07:23 PM']This is so off topic, but I never understood why people were so fond of St. Joan. The war between the British and the French was not for any good reason. Does anyone recall how horrible the Hundred Years War actually was?

It was a completely stupid bloodletting the way most wars are. St. Joan won a victory, for what? The Plantagenets wanted to be kings of France, and the Valois wanted to be kings of France too, so however many thousands of people had to die to determine who it should be. Money and power, money and power. The British were Catholic at the time, too. So why was God on France's side and not England. It makes no sense. In that kind of war I don't think God is on anybody's side.[/quote]

I have studied St. Joan of Arc in depth. My story in picking her was actually sort of backwards. I sort of believe that she picked me for some reason.

The war was caused by a woman and was ended by a woman. To the French it was for a good reason. They were being controlled by the English. The English and their supportors pillaged their villages, raped their women, killed thousand of innocent people, left many families homeless and made them search for refuge in surrounding villages. France was not invading England's territory. They were not doing the same things to the English. God called St. Joan to lead the French to victory and liberate her country. There was a prophesy at the time that France would be saved through a maid of the Oak of Lorraine. St. Joan was from the Lorraine valley. The British were Catholic at the time, true. However, they were unjustly the leaders of France. It can sort of be likened to our Revolutionary War in America only I believe that the war between France and England was a little more just than the Revolutionary War. They had people dying and their women and children being harmed. We had to pay taxes and keep our mouths shut.

God called St. Joan to lead the French to victory. She did so with humilty. She didn't want to go. She lived a nice quiet life. She was hidden. She obeyed however. In a time when women were not meant to speak and stand up for things, she did. She didn't like it. During her trial she was asked to wear a dress. She said, "Send me home to my mother and I will wear whatever you like." She didn't want to dress like a freak and wear her hair like a freak. She would have rather stayed home an weaved and sewn and taken care of the folks like the rest of the women of the time. However, she had a calling from God which she fulfilled.

It is so easy for us today to look back and say, "What a useless war. So many people died. What a waste!" Yet to those then it was the only answer to the freedom and a life free to live within their own culture as they had before, in peace.

[cmotherofpirl]

I have no problem drafting women to non-combat support positions. After all we have been doing that since time imemorial, its about time we get paid for it.

[picchick]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1686180' date='Oct 25 2008, 08:03 PM']Joan of Arc was docile to the yearnings of God. Whose to say God didn't try to move a man's heart to lead the military?[/quote]

God chose St. Joan of Arc because there was a prophesy at the time around her life. France was to be saved by a maid from the oak of Lorraine. The people of that time were commoners and thrived on ledgends and prophesies. God would not have chosen a man for this job when it was a woman who was in the prophesy. Furthermore, the events surrounding St. Joan (the finding of her sword, the telling of the Dauphin and Sir Robert de Baudricourt of the seige of Orleans) suggest that she was lead by God through her voices.

I should also add that people cannot rely on movies for an accurate protrayal of St. Joan of Arc. They either show her as fanatical, too brassy or too bold than what I have read of her biographies.

[Lilllabettt]

delete

Edited October 26, 2008 by Lilllabettt

[Maggyie]

From what I have read it is more complex than just the English raping the women and pillaging the countryside, although I get where you are coming from. Ultimately it began and ended as a dynastic power struggle. I am completely submissive to the Church in terms of St. Joan being a saint, I just can't understand and I don't think I ever will understand her role in the war. I mean even if many of them were horrible invaders I can't picture St. Margaret, St. Catherine and St Michael applauding as Joan leads the French human beings in the slaughter of the English human beings.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1686408' date='Oct 25 2008, 11:43 PM']From what I have read it is more complex than just the English raping the women and pillaging the countryside, although I get where you are coming from. Ultimately it began and ended as a dynastic power struggle. I am completely submissive to the Church in terms of St. Joan being a saint, I just can't understand and I don't think I ever will understand her role in the war. I mean even if many of them were horrible invaders I can't picture St. Margaret, St. Catherine and St Michael applauding as Joan leads the French human beings in the slaughter of the English human beings.[/quote]
Yeah, and in the crusades, if a town did not surrender before the walls were broken down, everyone was fair game inside. Your point?

[picchick]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1686408' date='Oct 25 2008, 11:43 PM']From what I have read it is more complex than just the English raping the women and pillaging the countryside, although I get where you are coming from. Ultimately it began and ended as a dynastic power struggle. I am completely submissive to the Church in terms of St. Joan being a saint, I just can't understand and I don't think I ever will understand her role in the war. I mean even if many of them were horrible invaders I can't picture St. Margaret, St. Catherine and St Michael applauding as Joan leads the French human beings in the slaughter of the English human beings.[/quote]


No one said that they applauded. No one said that God liked it. But to end the war (which I believe still continued a few years after her death) God sent St. Joan. She didn't like it. No one said that anyone liked it. But it had to be to end the war. Neither St. Joan nor God started the Hundred Year's war. It was a war started over power hungry people. However, the fact still remains that St. Joan was needed to end it through God's Will.

[Slappo]

[quote name='picchick' post='1686268' date='Oct 25 2008, 06:13 PM']God chose St. Joan of Arc because there was a prophesy at the time around her life. France was to be saved by a maid from the oak of Lorraine. The people of that time were commoners and thrived on ledgends and prophesies. God would not have chosen a man for this job when it was a woman who was in the prophesy. Furthermore, the events surrounding St. Joan (the finding of her sword, the telling of the Dauphin and Sir Robert de Baudricourt of the seige of Orleans) suggest that she was lead by God through her voices.

I should also add that people cannot rely on movies for an accurate protrayal of St. Joan of Arc. They either show her as fanatical, too brassy or too bold than what I have read of her biographies.[/quote]


Thanks for adding your knowledge of St. Joan's life Picchick! I appreciate it. Unfortunately one thing I have yet to do is really truly read up on her life. I've heard Mark Twain(?) actually wrote a biography of her and he prized it as his masterpiece and spent something like 10 years doing vast research and making sure he got everything right.

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1686150' date='Oct 26 2008, 02:02 AM']St. Joan is especially special to me though, because she spanked the British, which is a wholesome activity meritorious for both men and women. [/quote]

HEY

[picchick]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1686523' date='Oct 26 2008, 01:33 AM']Thanks for adding your knowledge of St. Joan's life Picchick! I appreciate it. Unfortunately one thing I have yet to do is really truly read up on her life. I've heard Mark Twain(?) actually wrote a biography of her and he prized it as his masterpiece and spent something like 10 years doing vast research and making sure he got everything right.[/quote]

Mark Twains book is good. I have not yet finished reading it. However, it is written from the manuscripts, I believe, of someone who knew St. Joan. Keeping that in mind, I find that the book tends to make her into something she is not. This is not Mark Twain's fault. I think that the people at the time however, held her in such high esteem that things are attributed to her without actually being done. When you read his book at first you will be thinking, what the heck? It just doesn't seem to portray St. Joan as I have read her.

A book I really recommend because it is a more straightforward and unbiased view of St. Joan is by John Beevers. It is called St. Joan of Arc. It is a really good book, easy to read and I use it pretty much as my standard for reference.

Happy reading!!

[HisChildForever]

There was this television series which (I think) was broken into three parts back in '99 in which Leelee Sobieski played Joan. I remember watching parts of it, it was the first time I was "introduced" to St. Joan. They did make her seem a little bit crazy though.

I have a book by Mary Gordon, but history really isn't my thing so I only got halfway through.

[rachael]

Can you imagine a bunch of teenage girls fresh from high school going into battle?

God help us all.

[rachael]

Can you imagine a bunch of teenage girls fresh from high school going into battle?

God help us all.

[picchick]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1686662' date='Oct 26 2008, 11:18 AM']There was this television series which (I think) was broken into three parts back in '99 in which Leelee Sobieski played Joan. I remember watching parts of it, it was the first time I was "introduced" to St. Joan. They did make her seem a little bit crazy though.

I have a book by Mary Gordon, but history really isn't my thing so I only got halfway through. [/quote]

I have seen three movies about St. Joan. Needless to say, I am a fanatic. I am sorry but I could go on and on. The one with Leelee makes St. Joan to be more brassy and bold rather than reserved and humble...only being bold when need be.

The Messenger really made St. Joan of Arc look like she was nuts. There was also points in the movie where it made it seem like St. Joan of Arc was making everything she was up from the voices to the leading into battle. One of her "voices" questioned the validity of her mission. I think that it was perhaps a good view that some people might of had of her in her time and it was a good movie but not an accurate protrayal of St. Joan in my opinion.
[quote name='rachael' post='1686686' date='Oct 26 2008, 12:30 PM']Can you imagine a bunch of teenage girls fresh from high school going into battle?

God help us all.

[/quote]

I'll drink to that....

But can you imagine a bunch of teenagers fresh out of high school going into battle at all?

[Slappo]

[quote name='picchick' post='1686738' date='Oct 26 2008, 11:53 AM']I'll drink to that....

But can you imagine a bunch of teenagers fresh out of high school going into battle at all?[/quote]

teenagers with guns on a war field = scary.