IcePrincessKRS Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1686044' date='Oct 25 2008, 04:01 PM']And the question is (not specifically directed at you, but the other posters here as well), is this because of our biology, or because of society, or because of both?[/quote] Which? Womens decisions or the allowances the Army has made for us? The answer to both is probably "both." I think that the Army has "given in" and allowed more women in than they used to because of society. I think that they used to not allow as much leeway to women because of our biology (see my first post in this thread about the difference in physical requirements between men and women), and I do believe that it was with good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1686045' date='Oct 25 2008, 12:06 PM']And that's fine, to say women are not [b]physically[/b] suited for combat. (And even in this instance I would say some women are suited for combat, if they train and build the muscle - they could "beat up" the average Joe walking down the block. Granted, "combat women" and "combat men" can not be compared, because men are physically stronger, but a "combat women" is stronger than your average male, given the circumstances.) But when you start saying that women serve as a distraction in combat situations, it's like - well we might as well have same-sex [i]everything[/i] (schools, libraries) if women are such a distraction for men. (And as if men don't serve as distractions for women?)[/quote] When it comes to distraction, the ONLY part that takes any consideration into whether or not women should be in combat situations I think, is the nature of the situation itself, not the distraction. In a combat situation, there is immediate and direct threat to the life of someone in a hostile environment that is not found in any other common situation (you have sad cases like countries where genocide is taking place, but that in itself is so radically different it can't be discussed). In a library, distraction does not increase immediate danger of death, only of flunking your next mid-term. Even in other work environments, the "danger" if you could even call it one, is less productivity at work, but still not death from a hostile enemy. That is the ONLY way I could see distraction playing a part in a combat situation (which I find to be a pretty poor, not useless, but poor and minimal argument in the situation). The only difference with distraction is that it is a life or death situation. I agree with HisChildForever that it comes pretty close to placing an argument for having gender specific everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1686045' date='Oct 25 2008, 12:06 PM']Quick edit - I also want to point out, as I did earlier, that when men and women are in combat situations, they are trained to fight, survive, and accomplish their mission(s). If they are even considering flirtations and relationships, then [b]neither[/b] member of [b]neither[/b] sex should be in such a serious role. Furthermore, I don't think it's fair to say that men would have the urge to protect the women and thus everyone is in danger (someone mentioned this earlier, I forget the poster) because then we can say that, within a group of twenty men, if four of those men are extremely close friends, couldn't they jeopardize the mission by putting their relationships before the group?[/quote] I think the men would have an urge to protect the women, it is part of their nature. I think the men would also have an urge to protect the men, it is part of their nature. Even look at our war movies we have. Often the hero goes out of his way to save this other man's life and dies doing so, yet we don't find this to be a bad thing, but to be heroic. When watching it sometimes we might think, "Oh that's stupid, go hide, run away!" But deep down inside aren't we cheering him on hoping that he's able to save the guy? This might be what one could call heroic virtue. Also, almost every war movie where we see that, the guy isn't risking his life for a girl, but for his brother soldier. As for training to fight and survive, it is where concupiscence meets the intellect I think. A lot of Christian men train themselves to not lust, yet when temptation comes, the desire for pleasure, meets the desire of the intellect, they can still fall. I really agree that it ought not be a problem, and if men and women weren't subject to concupiscence it wouldn't be a problem and therefore no argument whatsoever would stand on women not serving in combat on the basis of distraction. The problem with an argument based on distraction then turns to... "well why are men combat and not women? Why don't we just get a whole bunch of buff women in combat uniforms and throw all the men out of the army?" So the man/woman aspect of a combat situation is a bad argument for women in the military. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Sorry, i feel like I've kind of hijacked this thread . I just have really strong opinions here I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Holy cow this thread grew.... I also want to add something. There is a common view that men are more equipped to fight by the way they are wired. However, I have seen some really girly men and some really "manly" women. Women who could beat men up by looking at them. I do not see that an exclusive draft of men will do anything for anybody because 1) as I stated before, drafts are involuntary fighting so their heart isn't into it and 2) you don't know if you are picking qualified personnel. By qualified personnnel I mean people who are not only willing but have the staminia and so forth. I know that there are exclusions to drafts yet I do not think that it will exclude people with a lack of motivation. I do not think that men or women deserve a draft. I think that there are plenty of men and women lining up at the door to be accepted. You are speaking to one. Actually I wouldn't be on the combat side but still. I am willing and waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 [quote name='picchick' post='1686082' date='Oct 25 2008, 04:01 PM']Holy cow this thread grew.... I also want to add something. There is a common view that men are more equipped to fight by the way they are wired. However, I have seen some really girly men and some really "manly" women. Women who could beat men up by looking at them. I do not see that an exclusive draft of men will do anything for anybody because 1) as I stated before, drafts are involuntary fighting so their heart isn't into it and 2) you don't know if you are picking qualified personnel. By qualified personnnel I mean people who are not only willing but have the staminia and so forth. I know that there are exclusions to drafts yet I do not think that it will exclude people with a lack of motivation. I do not think that men or women deserve a draft. I think that there are plenty of men and women lining up at the door to be accepted. You are speaking to one. Actually I wouldn't be on the combat side but still. I am willing and waiting. [/quote] This is why we both rock St. Joan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1686116' date='Oct 25 2008, 06:13 PM']This is why we both rock St. Joan. [/quote] lol st. Joan!!! St. Joan of Arc was so dynamic though. She was bold when she needed to be yet, "woman-like" in character. She totally rocks my world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 [quote name='picchick' post='1686119' date='Oct 25 2008, 06:18 PM']lol st. Joan!!! St. Joan of Arc was so dynamic though. She was bold when she needed to be yet, "woman-like" in character. She totally rocks my world.[/quote] I know! I love "woman power" figures (...like Buffy ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 St. Joan of Arc is my confirmation saint . Ironic huh? And I still don't feel that women ought to be in combat situations. St. Joan of Arc pray for us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 [quote name='Slappo' post='1686130' date='Oct 25 2008, 06:39 PM']St. Joan of Arc is my confirmation saint . Ironic huh? And I still don't feel that women ought to be in combat situations. St. Joan of Arc pray for us![/quote] Oh wow, you picked a female saint? I thought the guys had to pick a guy and the girls had to pick a girl (even more irony here due to what we were debating). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 (edited) I faintly hear the Spice Girls screaming "girl power!!" I'm a wet blanket. For me gender pride=ickiness. Power women are great. Cool beans. But I don't care that they're women. It just doesn't strike me as special that they're women who are powerful. St. Joan is especially special to me though, because she spanked the British, which is a wholesome activity meritorious for both men and women. Edited October 25, 2008 by Lilllabettt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 The more I grow older, the more I LOVE that I picked her too. I think St. Joan of Arc understood that the place of combat was not normally proper for a woman, but that there was a job that needed to get done that the men weren't stepping up to. If I remember correctly, she even tried to get the male military leaders to lead the armies in combat but they wouldn't. I think it shows that it isn't intrinsically evil for something like that to happen, but that it still isn't what is desired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 [quote name='Slappo' post='1686153' date='Oct 25 2008, 07:07 PM']The more I grow older, the more I LOVE that I picked her too. I think St. Joan of Arc understood that the place of combat was not normally proper for a woman, but that there was a job that needed to get done that the men weren't stepping up to. If I remember correctly, she even tried to get the male military leaders to lead the armies in combat but they wouldn't. I think it shows that it isn't intrinsically evil for something like that to happen, but that it still isn't what is desired.[/quote] But didn't [b]God[/b] tell her to go to battle? He could have picked some dude but nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 (edited) This is so off topic, but I never understood why people were so fond of St. Joan. The war between the British and the French was not for any good reason. Does anyone recall how horrible the Hundred Years War actually was? It was a completely stupid bloodletting the way most wars are. St. Joan won a victory, for what? The Plantagenets wanted to be kings of France, and the Valois wanted to be kings of France too, so however many thousands of people had to die to determine who it should be. Money and power, money and power. The British were Catholic at the time, too. So why was God on France's side and not England. It makes no sense. In that kind of war I don't think God is on anybody's side. Edited October 25, 2008 by Maggie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1686154' date='Oct 25 2008, 04:09 PM']But didn't [b]God[/b] tell her to go to battle? He could have picked some dude but nope. [/quote] Joan of Arc was docile to the yearnings of God. Whose to say God didn't try to move a man's heart to lead the military? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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