Ephesians

[Brother Adam]

Verses 1:13-14

Why were they included as being "in Christ" upon hearing the Word? Don't they need to be baptized to be part of the covenant? Were they saved before their baptism? Doesn't verse 14 garuntee eternal security?

2:8-9 - Cool verse

4:10-14

There seems to be a hierarchy spoken about here. With Christ as the head and then the Apostles, evangelists, all the way down to all the believers. What do you make of this?

[frozencell]

[quote]Verses 1:13-14

Why were they included as being "in Christ" upon hearing the Word? Don't they need to be baptized to be part of the covenant? Were they saved before their baptism? Doesn't verse 14 garuntee eternal security?[/quote]

First, it would have been pretty tedious if Paul had sat and written out every last detail of being initiated into the Church every time he wrote about it. They understood what he was saying and talking about. There was no need for him to go into huge detail, just hit the big points.

Secondly, it is not wise to say that verse 14 ensures eternal security. The Holy Spirit is our down payment. Let's look at that for a sec. Say I want to buy a nice stereo, but I don't have all the money right now. I put it on lay-away. I put a down payment. Now if I don't pay anything else on that they are going to put it back on the shelf sooner or later and I've lost everything I had invested in it. It's the same way with verse 14. God gives me the Holy Spirit, who, in turn, puts a down payment on us before God, saying that when I have fulfilled the agreement (living my life exactly the way He wants me to up until I die) then i will recieve my reward. But if I don't fulfill the "terms of service" my down payment in heaven can be revoked at any time.

Our covenant with God is a two-way road. God could meet us at our starting point if He had wished to do it that way, but instead He said, "Go as far as you can possibly go, until you can not humanly go any further, and I'll meet you there."


Okay. 2:8-9 - The big whammy verses!

God has seen fit that, if we believe that He is who He says He is and do everything He asks, then He will bestow upon us the grace of letting us into heaven for eternity. This verse only states that no one can get into heaven by himself. No one can build the Tower of Babel and get into heaven. No one can climb the beanstalk and get into His mansion. No one can buy his way into heaven. No one can get into heaven by doing wonderful things ALONE. It is God that lets us into heaven, not us letting ourselves into heaven. In this context it is a wonderful verse displaying God's love for us. But I fear that you didn't mean it that way, and in your context it is just an attempted trap for Catholics.

What do I make of 4:10-14? Sounds like the beautiful Catholic Church myself. Christ as the head of the Church and us believers as the body of the Church.

Edited March 9, 2004 by frozencell

[Brother Adam]

I have no intention of "trapping" Catholics. You really don't need to be on the defense with my posts. Honest. I'm here in the spirit of learning and understanding. Yes, I will say it like I think it is, but that doesn't mean I'm declaring you are wrong. I, like everyone here is, am still growing and learning.

[frozencell]

I wasn't being defensive. I'm sorry you took it that way. Many people use 8-9 as THE debunking of the Catholic faith and never stop to think about what grace really is.