frozencell Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 (edited) [quote]But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church-for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church-whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church-do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body,(21) and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.(22)[/quote] Actually, I think this just reaffirms that Protestants are our dear brothers and sisters departed from the True Church. It establishes that we do not have the resentment towards Protestants that is so prevelantly displayed on the other side of the Christian coin. Edited March 10, 2004 by frozencell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 10, 2004 Author Share Posted March 10, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 9 2004, 05:50 PM'] how have I turned the truth OF CHRIST into a lie? having read a good portion of the Vatican 2, I have to say that you people here don't seem to fully agree with what it has to say. and if you do, then so be it with you...but I read things in the Vatican 2 that do go against the word of God... ---- and Brother Adam, could you explain "learn blamelesssly"? I don't quite comprehend this term. peace. [/quote] I don't think they've meant that "you" have turned the Truth of Christ into a lie. I think a better way to put it would be that you have been told a lie, and have partial truth. It seems you also have some things misunderstood about Vatican II. Vatican II did not make any infallible statements. Vatican II's council would fall under pastoral and obidence type instruction. We wouldn't call Vatican II the word of God, but God does guide the councils... The VII Council is of the Church established by Christ. It has it's purpose.... even though some may disagree with parts, VII was needed and serves a purpose of the Lord. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 10, 2004 Author Share Posted March 10, 2004 (edited) [quote]I am part of NO denomination. my faith and RELATIONSHIP lie solely with the Lord Jesus Christ.[/quote] Then you are your own denomination, just not official. [b]1 Tim 3:15[/b] But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. How are you behaving in the household of God since you are not in the Church? [b]St Matt 18:17[/b] (Jesus said) [color=red]If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.[/color] The Church must be pretty important if Jesus tells us to go to it and listen. Which Church has the authority? Start in 33 AD. [b]St. Matt 28:18[/b] Then Jesus approached and said to them, "[color=red]All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [/color] [b]19 [/b][color=red]Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, [/color] [b]20 [/b][color=red]teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.[/color]" What disciples can be traced directly back to 33 AD and has been teaching the same things which Christ taught? [quote]if you were to test me on this, and get to know me, you might see that my life is that of one seeking evermore to grow closer to God.[/quote] That's great. We all are... it's a good thing that God brought you here so that we all can come closer to him. [quote]I have yet to call the Roman Catholic Church (not any of you, though you all consider yourself part of that church, therefore will PROBLY take offense to that last remark) out on all its discrepancies and Biblical errancies.[/quote] There are no errors in the teaching of the Catholic Church on faith and morals. Have you studied where we got the Canon of the New Testament? It says alot for which Church was actually established by Christ. [quote]you can call me whatever you want...but if you hold my life up to God's word, you will find a servant, trying my hardest to be humble, loving and filled with the Lord.[/quote] That's awesome. God's word is great... the bible is only part of God's Word. To have the complete collection one must know which traditions were followed and handed down orally from the Apostles all the way to today. [b]2 Timoty 3:14 [/b] But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, [b]2 Thess 2:15 [/b] Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours [quote]say what you will about all the Protestant denominations, it makes no difference to me...they could all pass away or join together, yet if they did not follow the Lord's word and allow themselves to be led by the Spirit, you would find me....and all the other true brethren in Christ, NOT found among their numbers. [/quote] Acts 20:30 and 2 Peter 3:16 tells us that true believers will be fooled by the deceivers that leave the Church.... How do you know that you have not been lied to unless you start in the beginning? 33 AD. How can they follow the Truth if they all contradict each other? They have some truth, not all. The Spirit does not divide, it unites.... under One Faith. You would gain much insite into what true Christianity is, if you would read the first Christian writings. With so many denominations and knowing that the Apostles constantly preached unity, how else are we to know who has the truth unless we start where and when Chrsitianity began? You can find all the writings for free at [url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/[/url] They are the exact same writings as [url="http://www.logos.com/products/details/518"]http://www.logos.com/products/details/518[/url] that sells for $250. [i][color=blue]The Early Church Fathers CD-ROM comes in two versions, Protestant and Catholic. Simply put, the difference is that the Protestant edition contains [u]additional front matter written at a later date. [/u]There is no difference in the actual ECF text.[/color][/i] "Additional front matter written at a later date" - Why would anyone after 1517 AD need to add to what the First Christians taught? Your Servant in Christ, ironmonk Edited March 10, 2004 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhatPhred Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 9 2004, 02:27 PM']Maybe you need some help with your research skills or your definition of a denomination?[/quote] You should probably be aware of the definition of denomination that WCD uses: [quote]Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 10, 2004 Author Share Posted March 10, 2004 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 9 2004, 12:03 PM'] 34,000 is way overdone. WAY overdone. From what I have personally researched 1,200 is much more appropriate. You can't call it a new denomination every time someone expresses their personal opinion. [/quote] HEY Bro... I just read your post to Sarah, very nice. I'm glad you liked the number Your Servant, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 10, 2004 Author Share Posted March 10, 2004 [quote name='PhatPhred' date='Mar 9 2004, 10:45 PM'] You should probably be aware of the definition of denomination that WCD uses: [/quote] Thanks for the heads up... that was said with tongue in cheek. They might be thinking of the splinter Catholic groups... I would be interested in what they mean... maybe orders? None the less, 34,000 is not an outrageous number when you think about every person that starts up a church with bible in hand. I live in a town with 50,000 people... there are 218 churches in my area, many of them are independant with no affliation. Now, thinking of the entire world, especially with the big cities... wow. Your Servant, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Yeah, no kidding right, Catholicism is just another denomination. 236 to be precise NICE source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archangel Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Is the World Christian Database put out by a Protestant or Catholic source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 9 2004, 08:48 PM'] As in, through the grace of God you have been justified by your baptism. In baptism you have been given faith. Titus 3:3-7 for context. [/quote] so nobody is given faith until they are baptized? a 30 year old is faithless for 30 years....until he is baptized? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 [quote name='mulls' date='Mar 10 2004, 07:08 AM'] so nobody is given faith until they are baptized? a 30 year old is faithless for 30 years....until he is baptized? [/quote] not sure what you guys are talking about, but I love that dog on your avatar! maybe the problem has something to do with seperating faith & baptism? faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ implies baptism, at least the desire to be baptised, que no? I think sometimes the Bible talks about faith in a way that assumes works (actualization in one's life, as well as faith working through love, etc.) and similarly talks about baptism and works in a way that assumes faith. maybe I'm not making sense or am not talking about what you guys are talking about. but this helps me make sense out of Scripture. when I look at all the passages that have to do with faith, works (not in the sense of works of the law) and baptism I don't think it is meant to be seperated out and pitted against each other. I think certain things are just assumed, like that a believer will do good things, and that a person who believes in Christ will be baptized, and that a person who is baptized believes in Christ, etc.. hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 10, 2004 Author Share Posted March 10, 2004 [quote name='Archangel' date='Mar 10 2004, 04:45 AM'] Is the World Christian Database put out by a Protestant or Catholic source? [/quote] It's protestant.... it's from an evangelical seminary. LOL [url="http://www.gordonconwell.edu/"]http://www.gordonconwell.edu/[/url] Here is their methodology: [url="http://www.worldchristiandatabase.org/wcd/WCD_Methodology.pdf"]http://www.worldchristiandatabase.org/wcd/...Methodology.pdf[/url] Looks like they consider each country of Catholics a seperate denomination. So considering that, what are there about 250-300 countries in the world? So, maybe a more realistic number would be somewhere around 20,000... but still, if there were just two, then that would be one to many. They show that the Catholic Church did start in 33 AD, but they also claim the same of Orthodox. They're a little off. They fail to realize that the Orthodox were Catholic until 1054 AD. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archangel Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Thanks, ironmonk. Some dates seem to be way off. For example, it says that the "Lutheran Ch of Denmark: D Faeroe Is" began in the year 750. How could a Lutheran church begin several centuries before Martin Luther was even born? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 [quote]so nobody is given faith until they are baptized?[/quote] They would say that you aren't in the New Covenant. Acts 2:38-41. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Adam, Thank you for your inquiry. The 34,000 denominations are calculated by adding in the many networks that are found in the "other" categories found in most every country. For example if you look at other indendent charismatic churches in the USA you find that this represents about 6 million people in 1,500 small networks. We added all the "other" categories to come up with the 34,000 (which is a year 2000 estimate, we now think it has reached 37,000!) Take care, Todd M. Johnson Director, Center for the Study of Global Christianity Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary 130 Essex St., Box 201 South Hamilton, MA 01982 Office Phone: 978-646-4194 Office Fax: 978-646-4572 Website: www.globalchristianity.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Wow! So it's true afterall! Where have Circle_Master and BruceS been these days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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