Mary's Virginity And Sinlessness

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 9 2004, 03:46 PM']BUMP!

lumberjack isn't around these days, but this thread was really fun.

bumped for Apotheoun (sorry it jumps around like crazy, it was hard to stay on track. most of the arguments I had hoped to make were only being setup, never got around to tying it all together and presenting cogent arguments).

peace.[/quote]
Laudate_Dominum,

That was very interesting reading. I too have an interest in the concepts of [i]personal extension[/i] and [i]corporate personality[/i], and in fact the paper I wrote for my Theological Foundations class at Franciscan University was on applying those concepts to the Church as the perpetual extension of the incarnation throughout time. I began with an investigation of the use of those concepts in the Old Testament and went on to show how they bear on the nature of the Church as the Body of Christ. Although I didn't include the idea of [i]totality conception[/i] in my paper, that notion clearly informs the Church's understanding of the nature of the fall of man in Adam, and of his redemption in Christ (the new Adam).

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 10, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 10 2004, 05:04 AM'] Laudate_Dominum,

That was very interesting reading.  I too have an interest in the concepts of [i]personal extension[/i] and [i]corporate personality[/i], and in fact the paper I wrote for my Theological Foundations class at Franciscan University was on applying those concepts to the Church as the perpetual extension of the incarnation throughout time.  I began with an investigation of the use of those concepts in the Old Testament and went on to show how they bear on the nature of the Church as the Body of Christ.  Although I didn't include the idea of [i]totality conception[/i] in my paper, that notion clearly informs the Church's understanding of the nature of the fall of man in Adam, and of his redemption in Christ (the new Adam).

God bless,
Todd [/quote]
I can't wait to meet and discuss.

What were your main sources for personal extension and corporate personality? I am interested because if there are good books out there that I am unaware of I should like to read them.
In [u][i]The Mysteries of Christianity[/i][/u], Scheeben discusses the nature of the fall of man in Adam and relates this to our redemption in Christ in a radically profound way. I would like to go back and read that section, keeping totality conception in mind. I believe there is a lot there, to say the least.

What really interests me of late is how the development of technology (seen as an axis in the development of human society in general) has brought about an alienation in man, not originating in technology as such (I don't condemn it as evil in itself), but how the strivings of humanity (in particular techno-industrial strivings), proceeding without reference to God, become an expression of fallen man's fundamental disharmony. Many such ideas have been converging in a sort of holistic, Theologically informed interpretation of history and technology. There is a pattern, the pattern of salvation history, which is played out in an antithetical fashion. Might you recommend any books which may be of use on this quest? I know I've hardly alluded to much, but even loosely related texts would be welcomed.

books, books, books, books!!!!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 11 2004, 12:41 AM'] What were your main sources for personal extension and corporate personality? I am interested because if there are good books out there that I am unaware of I should like to read them.
[/quote]
Here is the whole list of the works cited and consulted for my paper, of course not all of them deal with corporate personality and personal extension:

Works cited:

Bouyer, Louis. Liturgical Piety. (Notre Dame, Ind: University of Notre Dame Press, 1955).

-----------------. The Paschal Mystery. (Chicago: Henry Regnery Company, 1950).

Deferrari, Roy Joseph, Editor. The Fathers of the Church. (New York: Fathers of the Church, Inc., 1953). Volume 21. St. Augustine's Confessions.

-----------------. The Fathers of the Church. (New York: Fathers of the Church,
Inc., 1955). Volume 30. St. Augustine's Letters 165-203.

Eichrodt, Walther. Theology of the Old Testament. (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, 1961).

Johnson, Aubrey R. The One and the Many in the Israelite Conception of God. (Cardiff: University of Wales Press, 1961).

Koehler, Ludwig. Old Testament Theology. (London: Lutterworth Press, 1957).

Mersch, Emile, S.J. The Whole Christ. (Milwaukee: The Bruce Publishing Company, 1938).

Moehler, John Adam. Symbolism or the Exposition of the Doctrinal Differences Between Catholics and Protestants. (New York: Benziger Brothers, 1906).

Schaff, Philip, Editor. The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. (Peabody: Hendrickson Publishers, 1994).

The Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation. (Boston: St. Paul Books and Media, 1965).

The Liturgy of the Hours: The Office of Readings, According to the Roman Rite. (Boston: St. Paul Editions, 1983).

Works consulted:

Thornton, L. S. The Common Life in the Body of Christ. (Westminster: Dacre Press, 1946).

Mersch, Emile, S.J. The Theology of the Mystical Body. (St. Louis: B. Herder Book Company, 1955).

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 10 2004, 05:04 AM'] Laudate_Dominum,

That was very interesting reading.  I too have an interest in the concepts of [i]personal extension[/i] and [i]corporate personality[/i], and in fact the paper I wrote for my Theological Foundations class at Franciscan University was on applying those concepts to the Church as the perpetual extension of the incarnation throughout time.  I began with an investigation of the use of those concepts in the Old Testament and went on to show how they bear on the nature of the Church as the Body of Christ.  Although I didn't include the idea of [i]totality conception[/i] in my paper, that notion clearly informs the Church's understanding of the nature of the fall of man in Adam, and of his redemption in Christ (the new Adam).

God bless,
Todd [/quote]
I would most enjoy reading that paper. My approach has been similar (although only a matter of personal study rather than a formal academic endeavor). The main difference would be that I apply these concepts toward elucidating a Biblical Theology of Mary as exemplar of the Church (laying a foundation for discussing the whole spectrum of revealed Marian doctrines). Working with these concepts led to the shedding of a great deal of light upon particularly Luke-Acts and John-Revelation. It also opened up considerable avenues of exploration through OT allusions and typologies particularly from the prophets. An outgrowth of this was the identification of various themes contained in Vatican II (principally Lumen Gentium) which remarkably parallel many seemingly neglected elements of Luke-Acts (and to a lesser extend the Johannine corpus). My personal conviction being that the hand of God is truly and marvelously at work in these documents (Vatican II), despite the harsh polemics of so many critics these days, and the bastard interpretations of the various liberal hi-jackers.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 11 2004, 01:42 AM'] I would most enjoy reading that paper. My approach has been similar (although only a matter of personal study rather than a formal academic endeavor). The main difference would be that I apply these concepts toward elucidating a Biblical Theology of Mary as exemplar of the Church (laying a foundation for discussing the whole spectrum of revealed Marian doctrines). Working with these concepts led to the shedding of a great deal of light upon particularly Luke-Acts and John-Revelation. It also opened up considerable avenues of exploration through OT allusions and typologies particularly from the prophets. An outgrowth of this was the identification of various themes contained in Vatican II (principally Lumen Gentium) which remarkably parallel many largely neglected elements of Luke-Acts (and to a lesser extend the Johannine corpus). My personal conviction being that the hand of God is truly and marvelously at work in these documents (Vatican II), despite the harsh polemics of so many critics these days, and the bastard interpretations of the various liberal hi-jackers. [/quote]
My emphasis has been on the nature of the Church as the Body of Christ, one person with her head. I became interested in this theological idea when I read St. Augustine's Enarrationes in Psalmos, and eventually found what I believe to be the two best studies on this topic: (1) The Whole Christ, by Emile Mersch, and (2) The Common Life in the Body of Christ, by L. S. Thornton. I'd never really thought of applying this to Mariology, but the idea is intriguing. The various levels of typology and interpretation are quite staggering. I mean, the Church is the Body of Christ, the spotless Bride of Christ, the Mother of the Faithful, the New Eve, etc., and of course many of these types apply to Mary as well. In addition, the Church is our Virgin Mother for she gives birth to the sons of God through the baptismal font, which is her womb, this and other ideas can be found throughout the Church Fathers, and once again the Church and Mary are connected. I also remember reading Julian of Norwich's "Divine Showings" and she saw Christ as our Mother, and after reading her "revelations" I came to understand why she made that connection. The Church is our Mother, she is also the Body of Christ, and is one person with her Mystical Head, and so it is true to say that Christ is the Whole Church, and since He is the Church and the Church is our Mother, Julian called Christ our Mother. Now, this is all based on her private revelations and on connecting various types and mysteries to one another, and so it is of limited value, but it is intriguing nonetheless. There is an ancient homily from the second century that speaks of Christ as the Eternal Male and the Church as the Eternal Female, and speaks this way in connection with the narrative of the creation in Genesis 1. But I digress. I'll have to give more consideration to the Marian dimensions in connection with the Church and corporate personality.

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 11, 2004 by Apotheoun

[MorphRC]

Mariam Tracts.

[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.net/0002Catholic.htm#Mary"]http://www.catholicapologetics.net/0002Catholic.htm#Mary[/url] & Other Saints

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Aug 11 2004, 07:27 AM'] Mariam Tracts.

[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.net/0002Catholic.htm#Mary"]http://www.catholicapologetics.net/0002Catholic.htm#Mary[/url] & Other Saints [/quote]
that's a great collection! one more cool link to add to my favorites.

thanks

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 11 2004, 02:41 AM'] What really interests me of late is how the development of technology (seen as an axis in the development of human society in general) has brought about an alienation in man, not originating in technology as such (I don't condemn it as evil in itself), but how the strivings of humanity (in particular techno-industrial strivings), proceeding without reference to God, become an expression of fallen man's fundamental disharmony. Many such ideas have been converging in a sort of holistic, Theologically informed interpretation of history and technology. There is a pattern, the pattern of salvation history, which is played out in an antithetical fashion. Might you recommend any books which may be of use on this quest? I know I've hardly alluded to much, but even loosely related texts would be welcomed.

books, books, books, books!!!! [/quote]
Apotheoun,

I don't know if you say this part of my earlier post because I edited the post and added it later.

God bless

[Madonna]

Regarding Mary's Virginity:

I used to think that it wouldn't be a big deal if Mary had consummated her marriage to Joseph. I talked to some men about it, and they said if they were Joseph, they wouldn't dare to enter a place where the Lord had been. That's a "don't even go there" kind of deal. I think it's a matter of reverence. Mary was Holy ground.

Edited August 11, 2004 by Madonna

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 11 2004, 11:28 AM'] Apotheoun,

I don't know if you say this part of my earlier post because I edited the post and added it later.

God bless [/quote]
Yes, I did notice it. I think much of modern man's struggle with nature is founded upon the Renaissance, the Reformation, and the Enlightenment, all of which in their own way attacked the sacredness of time and the world. The Catholic sacramental worldview sees the incarnation as redemptive for man, but also for the entire cosmic order. I wrote a paper at San Francisco State University in which I briefly touch on this rupture between the sense of the sacred and the natural world, and although it doesn't address everything you've mentioned in your post, it is related, at least in a minor way, to what you are saying.

Here is a link to that paper: [url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p38.htm"]The Sin of Idolatry and the Catholic Concept of Iconic Participation[/url]

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 11, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 11 2004, 01:36 PM'] Yes, I did notice it.  I think much of modern man's struggle with nature is founded upon the Renaissance, the Reformation, and the Enlightenment, all of which in their own way attacked the sacredness of time and the world.  The Catholic sacramental worldview sees the incarnation as redemptive for man, but also for the entire cosmic order.  I wrote a paper at San Francisco State University in which I briefly touch on this rupture between the sense of the sacred and the natural world, and although it doesn't address everything you've mentioned in your post, it is related, at least in a minor way, to what you are saying.

Here is a link to that paper:  [url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p38.htm"]The Sin of Idolatry and the Catholic Concept of Iconic Participation[/url]

God bless,
Todd [/quote]
Actually your paper appears to be related to many central aspects of what I've been doing. The universe as incarnational, the concepts of mystery and the sacred, and the inner structure of idolatry all come into play.
And I've considered the development of the "modern" age from the late middle ages through the Renaissance, Reformation and Enlightenment. A problem I have with the original approach I was taking is that it took the development of philosophy too much in isolation. I have striven to understand developments in art (particularly interested is the emergence of linear perspective in art), science (particularly interesting are the contributions of Newton and Kelvin), general political and societal developments (obviously things like the rise of the middle class and the industrial revolution), religious philosophy, various geographical and sociological developments, and the radical epistemological changes that have occured. The point of my so called "historical Theology of technology" is that it offers categories and a frame of reference which capture the holistic view I have desired. I believe it possible to grasp something of the essence of humanties general struggles through history (particularly in recent centuries) and get at how these phenomenon relate ultimately to the mystery of Christ. The reason this seems very important to me is because of the appearant division between Theology and the secular sciences. There is certainly an antagonism between the popular positivistic mentality, and religious beliefs rooted in ancient traditions. Many questions come to mind as a result of (and obviously conditioned by) this division. For example, what do artificial intelligence, space exploration, cloning, neuroscience, bio-social psychology, etc.. have to do with Christ and the Church? Many people perceive even the possibility of many such things as an underminging of the Christian worldview. I believe thorough answers are latent within Scripture and Tradition and that the mystery of Christ encompasses everything that is possible in the cosmos, and is the ultimate 'reason' (ratio) and end of all things. I don't mean to give the impression that I am suggesting some radical new Theology, rather I believe the answer is more of an application of what the Church already possesses in her great Theological treasury.

I'm done playing the babbling fool.
Thanks again for the rockin' paper.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 11 2004, 12:20 PM'] Actually your paper appears to be related to many central aspects of what I've been doing. The universe as incarnational, the concepts of mystery and the sacred, and the inner structure of idolatry all come into play.
And I've considered the development of the "modern" age from the late middle ages through the Renaissance, Reformation and Enlightenment. A problem I have with the original approach I was taking is that it took the development of philosophy too much in isolation. I have striven to understand developments in art (particularly interested is the emergence of linear perspective in art), science (particularly interesting are the contributions of Newton and Kelvin), general political and societal developments (obviously things like the rise of the middle class and the industrial revolution), religious philosophy, various geographical and sociological developments, and the radical epistemological changes that have occured. The point of my so called "historical Theology of technology" is that it offers categories and a frame of reference which capture the holistic view I have desired. I believe it possible to grasp something of the essence of humanties general struggles through history (particularly in recent centuries) and get at how these phenomenon relate ultimately to the mystery of Christ. The reason this seems very important to me is because of the appearant division between Theology and the secular sciences. There is certainly an antagonism between the popular positivistic mentality, and religious beliefs rooted in ancient traditions. Many questions come to mind as a result of (and obviously conditioned by) this division. For example, what do artificial intelligence, space exploration, cloning, neuroscience, bio-social psychology, etc.. have to do with Christ and the Church? Many people perceive even the possibility of many such things as an underminging of the Christian worldview. I believe thorough answers are latent within Scripture and Tradition and that the mystery of Christ encompasses everything that is possible in the cosmos, and is the ultimate 'reason' (ratio) and end of all things. I don't mean to give the impression that I am suggesting some radical new Theology, rather I believe the answer is more of an application of what the Church already possesses in her great Theological treasury.

I'm done playing the babbling fool.
Thanks again for the rockin' paper. [/quote]
The problem with the modern world is that it focuses on man to the exclusion of the divine. This has even affected the Church during the last 40 years. There is a famous quotation from St. Ireneaus that I've seen displayed on banners in some parish Churches, and it reads: "The glory of God is a living man." It's a beautiful quotation, but it's also incomplete. The full sentence as St. Irenaeus wrote it is: "The glory of God is a living man, and the life of man consists in beholding God." It is the divine dimension that is missing from our modern technological world, and that is why the modern world appears so sterile and inhuman. Ironically, by centering wholly on man to the exclusion of the divine, man actually becomes less human, because it is only by focusing on the Vision of God, and by looking to the perfect exemplar of humanity, Christ Jesus, that man can really find himself.

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 11, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 11 2004, 12:20 PM']Actually your paper appears to be related to many central aspects of what I've been doing. The universe as incarnational, the concepts of mystery and the sacred, and the inner structure of idolatry all come into play.  And I've considered the development of the "modern" age from the late middle ages through the Renaissance, Reformation and Enlightenment. A problem I have with the original approach I was taking is that it took the development of philosophy too much in isolation. I have striven to understand developments in art (particularly interested is the emergence of linear perspective in art), science (particularly interesting are the contributions of Newton and Kelvin), general political and societal developments (obviously things like the rise of the middle class and the industrial revolution), religious philosophy, various geographical and sociological developments, and the radical epistemological changes that have occured. The point of my so called "historical Theology of technology" is that it offers categories and a frame of reference which capture the holistic view I have desired. I believe it possible to grasp something of the essence of humanties general struggles through history (particularly in recent centuries) and get at how these phenomenon relate ultimately to the mystery of Christ. The reason this seems very important to me is because of the appearant division between Theology and the secular sciences. There is certainly an antagonism between the popular positivistic mentality, and religious beliefs rooted in ancient traditions. Many questions come to mind as a result of (and obviously conditioned by) this division. For example, what do artificial intelligence, space exploration, cloning, neuroscience, bio-social psychology, etc.. have to do with Christ and the Church? Many people perceive even the possibility of many such things as an underminging of the Christian worldview. I believe thorough answers are latent within Scripture and Tradition and that the mystery of Christ encompasses everything that is possible in the cosmos, and is the ultimate 'reason' (ratio) and end of all things. I don't mean to give the impression that I am suggesting some radical new Theology, rather I believe the answer is more of an application of what the Church already possesses in her great Theological treasury.

I'm done playing the babbling fool.
Thanks again for the rockin' paper. [/quote]
As you quite rightly pointed out, technology is amoral, it gains it's moral character by the uses to which it is put. Thus, the various things you mentioned, ". . . artificial intelligence, space exploration, cloning, neuroscience, bio-social psychology, etc.," in no way undermine the Church or the Christian faith. In fact quite the contrary they demonstrate the power of the wondrous gift of reason given to man by God. Now, that is not to say that these things cannot be abused, because of course they can be, and it is the duty of the Church, as Mother and Teacher, to guide man's moral development in the proper use of the various gifts given to him by God. Moreover, I think you are correct when you say that the answer to many of the questions facing man are, ". . . latent within Scripture and Tradition and that the mystery of Christ encompasses everything that is possible in the cosmos, and is the ultimate 'reason' (ratio) and end of all things." The Church must focus her attention on spreading the good news of Christ, the incarnate Word, and must do this by constantly reminding man that both faith and reason are gifts of God.

God bless,
Todd

[Laudate_Dominum]

Yes, that is precisely the point. As I said before, it is an interpretation of the development and structure of human strivings as they proceed without reference to God. This is the essential factor which gives these dynamisms a shape which forms a kind of antithesis to the Christian world-view and a particular symbolism which mocks salvation history.

In the context in which these things have emerged they take on a symbolic content which manipulates the inner texture of society/culture. Thus things like the perception of masculinity and femininity, work, man's relation to himself and the outside world (even on a cosmic level), etc. are distorted in accordance with what I call simply, "anti-Christ". I perceive the dawning of the "anti-incarnation", and various subtle preparations for this symbolic event, such as the subversive post-industrial ethos as stimulated various dehumanizing forces (eg. the complete objectification of the human person, pop-culture as sublimated techno-eroticism, a hostility toward a Logos-centric cosmos- deconstruction, post-structuralism, etc.). It can be discerned in art, literature, music, architecture, to some extent politics and law, and of course contemporary applications of technology. The appropriation of man's spiritual and nuptial dimensions into a vacuum of pseudo-transcendence, and all of this as an expression of the state of fallen man's alienated and deprived soul.

Perhaps I'm loosing it... If I'm not loosing it, I fear it may become quite a struggle for people to believe in love and goodness in the midst of a vast, seemingly invincible onslaught of evil. The world is treacherous and winding. It is a twisted and violent place filled with darkness and snares. Perhaps I am merely projecting, and these theories are more an expression of my tortured soul than they are insight into reality.

Thanks you for your very balanced thoughts. Muy bien!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 11 2004, 01:47 PM'] Yes, that is precisely the point. As I said before, it is an interpretation of the development and structure of human strivings as they proceed without reference to God. This is the essential factor which gives these dynamisms a shape which forms a kind of antithesis to the Christian world-view and a particular symbolism which mocks salvation history.

Thanks you for your insights. Muy bien!

[/quote]
Yes, I think we both see the problem. But my main concern at the moment is that large elements of the Church herself seem to be adrift, and unsure of what the answer to this problem is, when the answer is Christ, the Church's own mystical Head. I know the Pope sees this clearly, and you can tell that by his encyclicals, but many others in the Church don't appear to understand the present situation at all.

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 11, 2004 by Apotheoun