Abortion War

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1671451' date='Oct 6 2008, 10:58 AM']not true. An abortion war would not be [i]self[/i]-defense.

besides, how many confused and helpless women would die unnecessarily as a result of this war, especially if there are means available to save her [i]and[/i] her child?[/quote]

Maybe its just me, but I'm not sure killing the mothers is part of the equation, part of the war. At least, I wouldn't consider it. I would war against the abortionist doctors and the organizations and the buildings and equipment themselves, not the mothers.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1671453' date='Oct 6 2008, 11:00 AM']i agree completely. I am not against all killing, but I am totally against any idea of using violence to end the abortion in our culture..[/quote]

Okay, that's fine. I disagree though, I think this would be a perfectly legit use of a just war.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1671583' date='Oct 6 2008, 02:50 PM']I believe that the likelihood of success for a civil war over abortion (or for any reason, for that matter) in this day in age is very small. I disagree with you on this point. The reason is that the level of technology currently used in the military is far too high for a state-run militia to have any hope of overthrowing a government sponsored military. The government would have tanks and jets and nukes and stuff. We would have small arms. This is scary for many reasons: people can no longer overthrow an unjust government.

This brings us to the point of fractioning the military -- we would have a military for and a military against, both with their own equipment that they happen to have available. But, in a particular base, there are likely people for and against. It's not a regional thing like it was during our last civil war where the enemy lines were clearly defined.

Another point -- any effort to organize such a movement would qualify as sedition/treason. Thus, organizing the movement will require a good deal of subterfuge. With over 1,000,000 people on the terrorist watch list, as well as the technological capability to track people who are even suspected of plotting against the US, such a movement would be difficult to organize, at best, without being uncovered before the attack was orchestrated.

For all of these reasons, I believe that starting a civil war over abortion, though justified for other reasons, is not justified for the reason of being unlikely at being successful. Anything that is big enough to be successful would most likely draw the attention of authorities before anything could be done.[/quote]

I agree with a lot of this, but I wonder if it would be impossible to overthrow a government (maybe not the US one but a smaller one). Al-qaeda seems to be having decent success, although they aren't actually overthrowing anything yet. But I wonder if they could...

[Didymus]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1671585' date='Oct 6 2008, 04:06 PM']Maybe its just me, but I'm not sure killing the mothers is part of the equation, part of the war. At least, I wouldn't consider it. I would war against the abortionist doctors and the organizations and the buildings and equipment themselves, not the mothers.[/quote]

yes I understand. My own assumption was more or less considering some of the mothers possibly dying as collateral damage..

[Didymus]

...

Edited October 6, 2008 by Didymus

[LouisvilleFan]

I like how nobody replied my point... obviously because I'm right.

How about we quit with the war nosense and do something that does work: pray.

Now's the perfect time too, during [url="http://www.40daysforlife.com/"]40 Days for Life[/url].

[dominicansoul]

I agree with Louisville Fan...

And no doubt WE ARE ALREADY AT WAR...

It's a spiritual battle, and it's been going on for 30+ years...

Prayer is the only resolution, and today being OUR LADY OF THE ROSARY, we should be reminded how powerful that prayer is, and how much God responds to it!

[Didymus]

I agree

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1671961' date='Oct 7 2008, 07:35 AM']I like how nobody replied my point... obviously because I'm right.

How about we quit with the war nosense and do something that does work: pray.

Now's the perfect time too, during [url="http://www.40daysforlife.com/"]40 Days for Life[/url].[/quote]

I didn't reply because I don't give a rats booty how many ppl those two men killed.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1672027' date='Oct 7 2008, 11:57 AM']I didn't reply because I don't give a rats booty how many ppl those two men killed.[/quote]

Um, it was a rhetorical question. Neither of them killed anyone, but they were both personally involved in the battle against Nazi Germany.

Edited October 7, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[goldenchild17]

my dad fought in the Iraq war and didn't kill anyone either, so... what's your point?

Edited October 7, 2008 by goldenchild17

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1672068' date='Oct 7 2008, 01:54 PM']my dad fought in the Iraq war and didn't kill anyone either, so... what's your point?[/quote]

The point is the only effective way to fight the war against abortion (and the wider culture of death) is through peaceful means. Why are we even speculating about the use of violence? Are we going to scare people into loving life?

[goldenchild17]

okay, well I don't get the correlation between them not killing anyone and peace being the only way to fight abortion, but... anyways I don't agree. That is your opinion, unless you have something to back it up with. The point is, you can have your opinion, but I can have mine too, because war is a Catholic option in many cases, and there's no reason to say that it can't apply here.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1672711' date='Oct 8 2008, 02:20 PM']okay, well I don't get the correlation between them not killing anyone and peace being the only way to fight abortion, but... anyways I don't agree. That is your opinion, unless you have something to back it up with. The point is, you can have your opinion, but I can have mine too, because war is a Catholic option in many cases, and there's no reason to say that it can't apply here.[/quote]

Some people in this thread have correlated the genocide of abortion with the genocide of Jews, homosexuals, Catholics, and others by the Nazis, and thus believe we have the grounds to fight a military war like World War II.

You ask for reasons, so here are a few:

1) Military wars are fought between militaries. Neither the pro-life nor pro-abortion movements have a military at their disposal with which to fight a war.
2) Military wars that were fought with the Church's blessing occured during ages of Christendom, when the relationships among government, society, and the Church were much tighter and generally better trusted than those relationships are today.
3) The war between pro-life and anti-life movements is primarily spiritual and cultural. Military wars cannot establish spiritual and cultural change, at least not without an authoritarian ruler.
4) The world's bishops are universally silent on the possibility of raising military might against abortion. If there were "no reason," as you claim, that a military war couldn't be fought against abortion, there would be at least a few brave bishops out there alerting us to this fact.

Do you think peaceful protest and prayer is insufficient?

Edited October 8, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1672756' date='Oct 8 2008, 01:20 PM']Some people in this thread have correlated the genocide of abortion with the genocide of Jews, homosexuals, Catholics, and others by the Nazis, and thus believe we have the grounds to fight a military war like World War II.[/quote]

I am one of those people.

[quote]You ask for reasons, so here are a few:

1) Military wars are fought between militaries. Neither the pro-life nor pro-abortion movements have a military at their disposal with which to fight a war.[/quote]

Which is one of the reasons I said it wouldn't be possible at this time to fight such a war, but its not a moral reason for there to be no war against it.

[quote]2) Military wars that were fought with the Church's blessing occured during ages of Christendom, when the relationships among government, society, and the Church were much tighter and generally better trusted than those relationships are today.[/quote]

see above

[quote]3) The war between pro-life and anti-life movements is primarily spiritual and cultural. Military wars cannot establish spiritual and cultural change, at least not without an authoritarian ruler.[/quote]

I believe it can happen with such a proper ruler. Example, the Catholic inquisition. I believe that was a perfectly warranted practice and brought about much needed good. This could be a quite similar process, but there is no ruler, governmental or religious, that will call for it. That doesn't mean it will never happen, only that its not practical at this time.

[quote]4) The world's bishops are universally silent on the possibility of raising military might against abortion. If there were "no reason," as you claim, that a military war couldn't be fought against abortion, there would be at least a few brave bishops out there alerting us to this fact.[/quote]

You're coming to the wrong person if you expect me to believe any regularized bishop is going to do jack-doody about anything.

[quote]Do you think peaceful protest and prayer is insufficient?[/quote]

do you think somebody is going to pass a test if they pray for it, but do not take the test? I can give any amount of examples you want. Prayer changes things, but only if you do whatever else is needed to effect said change. Do you want Roe v. Wade to be overturned? Yes we need to pray that it happens, but there are also a political process that we need to take part in if we want this prayer to be realized. Yes, definitely miracles happen, but to rely on a literally supernatural intervention without doing what we need to do is not a Catholic response.

Do we have the governmental or religious authority to call for a new inquisition? No, not at this time, but that doesn't mean such a thing won't help or isn't necessary.