Brother Adam Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 If you were to suggest one exshaustive book on justfication what would it be? Why? If you were where to do the same for Papal infallibility what would it be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 [i]The Salvation Controversy[/i], by James Akin because he was a protestant for most of his life (he's Catholic now) and has many years of experience in discussing justification with protestants so he understands the issues very, very well. I don't know of an exhaustive book just on Papal infallibility, but perhaps my favorite book on the Papacy in general is: [i]Jesus, Peter and the Keys[/i], by Scott Butler (and others). I wish every Christian would read this book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 8, 2004 Author Share Posted March 8, 2004 Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Lol, I thought you meant a book in the Bible for some reason. I think hands down you need to read [i]Not By Faith Alone[/i] by Robert Sungenis. There is no other word for this book but exhaustive. I haven't read Mr. Akin's work but am familiar with it. Pretty much anything by Jimmy Akin must be good though, he is probably my favorite apologist, so well spoken much like Dr. Scott Hahn. I would recommend [i]Upon this Rock[/i] by Steven Ray for the Papacy argument. I have the book but actually haven't read it yet. It is on my "To Read" list. Generally though it seems to be regarded by many as one of the best and recent books on the Papacy out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 8, 2004 Author Share Posted March 8, 2004 I want something super in depth. The end all of all arguments. I'm sick and tired of not being able to be 100% sure of doctrine. The Baptists tell me I'll go to hell if I become Catholic, and some Catholics tell me I'll probably be in hell if I'm a Baptist. I just ain't laughin' no more. I want the Truth and Jesus is on my side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Justified Saint' date='Mar 7 2004, 10:40 PM'] Lol, I thought you meant a book in the Bible for some reason. I think hands down you need to read [i]Not By Faith Alone[/i] by Robert Sungenis. There is no other word for this book but exhaustive. I haven't read Mr. Akin's work but am familiar with it. Pretty much anything by Jimmy Akin must be good though, he is probably my favorite apologist, so well spoken much like Dr. Scott Hahn. I would recommend [i]Upon this Rock[/i] by Steven Ray for the Papacy argument. I have the book but actually haven't read it yet.  It is on my "To Read" list. Generally though it seems to be regarded by many as one of the best and recent books on the Papacy out there. [/quote] Of course! I forgot all about Sungenis' book. Silly me. J.S. is right Brother, Sungenis' book is a massive tome, 816 pages. And he leaves no stone unturned. Edited March 8, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 And I'll tell you a secret Brother Adam. If you write to Sungenis and tell him you are a protestant who is interested in hearing what he has to say about justification but you cannot afford his book, I am like 99% certain that he would send you a copy for free. I know of people who have obtained much of their apologetics library by writing the authors in this way. But shhh! keep this on the down low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 And he just might autograph the book too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Books aside, I honesty think one can find some of the best arguments and most exhaustive discussions of many of these topics on the net. There are many excellent Catholic apologetics sites out there that provide just as much scholarly insight as anything you will find in a book. Sure, maybe you will find some misspelled words in some of these articles, but they are still gems. Jimmy Akin's (JimmyAkin.com) site for example has many excellent and lengthy articles dealing with salvation. He has close to a twenty page article dealing specifically with James 2, another one of about the same length regarding Paul and his use of 'law', discussions on the Catholic understanding of merit, righteousness, and justification etc. I have had the oppurtunity to read many of them and they are all very good reads. Matt 1618 (matt1618.freeyellow.com) has a great site too as well as Dave Armstrong's(biblicalcatholic.com). Dave actually posts some materials from his books on his site and most all of his books you can purchase for like 4 or 5 dollars a piece and download. I personally think the best agruments are really on the web, you just got to know where to look for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 8 2004, 12:45 AM'] I want something super in depth. The end all of all arguments. I'm sick and tired of not being able to be 100% sure of doctrine. The Baptists tell me I'll go to hell if I become Catholic, and some Catholics tell me I'll probably be in hell if I'm a Baptist. I just ain't laughin' no more. I want the Truth and Jesus is on my side. [/quote] If you want indepth, read the Early Church Fathers. They're all at: [url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/[/url] But... if you would like a CD; I have them all on CD in Window's help format, which means they're searchable. I'll burn you a copy if you like, just email me at iron_monk@hotmail.com where you would like it mailed to. Or if you are on high speed access, I'll zip the file and you can download it from my website. Email me to let me know... Who better to learn from than those who walked with 'those who walked with Christ.' God Bless, ironmonk PS>>> Here's a start... [b]Ignatius of Antioch[/b] "Be pleasing to him whose soldiers you are, and whose pay you receive. May none of you be found to be a deserter. Let your baptism be your armament, your faith your helmet, your love your spear, your endurance your full suit of armor. Let your works be as your deposited withholdings, so that you may receive the back-pay which has accrued to you" (Letter to Polycarp 6:2 [A.D. 110]). [b]Justin Martyr[/b] "We have learned from the prophets and we hold it as true that punishments and chastisements and good rewards are distributed according to the merit of each man’s actions. Were this not the case, and were all things to happen according to the decree of fate, there would be nothing at all in our power. If fate decrees that this man is to be good and that one wicked, then neither is the former to be praised nor the latter to be blamed" (First Apology 43 [A.D. 151]). [b]Tatian the Syrian[/b] "[T]he wicked man is justly punished, having become depraved of himself; and the just man is worthy of praise for his honest deeds, since it was in his free choice that he did not transgress the will of God" (Address to the Greeks 7 [A.D. 170]). [b]Athenagoras[/b] "And we shall make no mistake in saying, that the [goal] of an intelligent life and rational judgment, is to be occupied uninterruptedly with those objects to which the natural reason is chiefly and primarily adapted, and to delight unceasingly in the contemplation of Him Who Is, and of his decrees, notwithstanding that the majority of men, because they are affected too passionately and too violently by things below, pass through life without attaining this object. For . . . the examination relates to individuals, and the reward or punishment of lives ill or well spent is proportioned to the merit of each" (The Resurrection of the Dead 25 [A.D. 178]). [b]Theophilus of Antioch[/b] "He who gave the mouth for speech and formed the ears for hearing and made eyes for seeing will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works [Rom. 2:7], he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things, which neither eye has seen nor ear has heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man [1 Cor. 2:9]. For the unbelievers and the contemptuous and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity . . . there will be wrath and indignation [Rom. 2:8]" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]). [b]Irenaeus[/b] "[Paul], an able wrestler, urges us on in the struggle for immortality, so that we may receive a crown and so that we may regard as a precious crown that which we acquire by our own struggle and which does not grow upon us spontaneously. . . . Those things which come to us spontaneously are not loved as much as those which are obtained by anxious care" (Against Heresies 4:37:7 [A.D. 189]). [b]Tertullian[/b] "Again, we [Christians] affirm that a judgment has been ordained by God according to the merits of every man" (To the Nations 19 [A.D. 195]). "In former times the Jews enjoyed much of God’s favor, when the fathers of their race were noted for their righteousness and faith. So it was that as a people they flourished greatly, and their kingdom attained to a lofty eminence; and so highly blessed were they, that for their instruction God spoke to them in special revelations, pointing out to them beforehand how they should merit his favor and avoid his displeasure" (Apology 21 [A.D. 197]). "A good deed has God for its debtor [cf. Prov. 19:17], just as also an evil one; for a judge is the rewarder in every case [cf. Rom. 13:3–4]" (Repentance 2:11 [A.D. 203]). [b]Hippolytus[/b] "Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment,’ and the justice of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]). [b]Cyprian of Carthage[/b] "The Lord denounces [Christian evildoers], and says, ‘Many shall say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, and in your name have cast out devils, and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you who work iniquity’ [Matt. 7:21–23]. There is need of righteousness, that one may deserve well of God the Judge; we must obey his precepts and warnings, that our merits may receive their reward" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 15, 1st ed. [A.D. 251]). "[Y]ou who are a matron rich and wealthy, anoint not your eyes with the antimony of the devil, but with the collyrium of Christ, so that you may at last come to see God, when you have merited before God both by your works and by your manner of living" (Works and Almsgivings 14 [A.D. 253]). [b]Lactantius[/b] "Let every one train himself to righteousness, mold himself to self-restraint, prepare himself for the contest, equip himself for virtue . . . [and] in his uprightness acknowledge the true and only God, may cast away pleasures, by the attractions of which the lofty soul is depressed to the earth, may hold fast innocence, may be of service to as many as possible, may gain for himself incorruptible treasures by good works, that he may be able, with God for his judge, to gain for the merits of his virtue either the crown of faith, or the reward of immortality" (Epitome of the Divine Institutes 73 [A.D. 317]). [b]Cyril of Jerusalem[/b] "The root of every good work is the hope of the resurrection, for the expectation of a reward nerves the soul to good work. Every laborer is prepared to endure the toils if he looks forward to the reward of these toils" (Catechetical Lectures 18:1 [A.D. 350]). [b]Jerome[/b] "It is our task, according to our different virtues, to prepare for ourselves different rewards. . . . If we were all going to be equal in heaven it would be useless for us to humble ourselves here in order to have a greater place there. . . . Why should virgins persevere? Why should widows toil? Why should married women be content? Let us all sin, and after we repent we shall be the same as the apostles are!" (Against Jovinian 2:32 [A.D. 393]). [b]Augustine[/b] "We are commanded to live righteously, and the reward is set before us of our meriting to live happily in eternity. But who is able to live righteously and do good works unless he has been justified by faith?" (Various Questions to Simplician 1:2:21 [A.D. 396]). "He bestowed forgiveness; the crown he will pay out. Of forgiveness he is the donor; of the crown, he is the debtor. Why debtor? Did he receive something? . . . The Lord made himself a debtor not by receiving something but by promising something. One does not say to him, ‘Pay for what you received,’ but ‘Pay what you promised’" (Explanations of the Psalms 83:16 [A.D. 405]). "What merits of his own has the saved to boast of when, if he were dealt with according to his merits, he would be nothing if not damned? Have the just then no merits at all? Of course they do, for they are the just. But they had no merits by which they were made just" (Letters 194:3:6 [A.D. 412]). "What merit, then, does a man have before grace, by which he might receive grace, when our every good merit is produced in us only by grace and when God, crowning our merits, crowns nothing else but his own gifts to us?" (ibid., 194:5:19). [b]Prosper of Aquitaine[/b] "Indeed, a man who has been justified, that is, who from impious has been made pious, since he had no antecedent good merit, receives a gift, by which gift he may also acquire merit. Thus, what was begun in him by Christ’s grace can also be augmented by the industry of his free choice, but never in the absence of God’s help, without which no one is able either to progress or to continue in doing good" (Responses on Behalf of Augustine 6 [A.D. 431]). [b]Sechnall of Ireland[/b] "Hear, all you who love God, the holy merits of Patrick the bishop, a man blessed in Christ; how, for his good deeds, he is likened unto the angels, and, for his perfect life, he is comparable to the apostles" (Hymn in Praise of St. Patrick 1 [A.D. 444]). [b]Council of Orange II[/b] "[G]race is preceded by no merits. A reward is due to good works, if they are performed, but grace, which is not due, precedes [merits], that they may be done" (Canons on grace 19 [A.D. 529]). Edited March 8, 2004 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Stuff by James Atkins on justification: [url="http://ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/ABRAHAM.HTM"]http://ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/ABRAHAM.HTM[/url] [url="http://ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/JAMES2.HTM"]http://ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/JAMES2.HTM[/url] [url="http://ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/JUSTIF.HTM"]http://ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/JUSTIF.HTM[/url] [url="http://ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SOLAFIDE.HTM"]http://ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SOLAFIDE.HTM[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 8, 2004 Author Share Posted March 8, 2004 Ironmonk, I already have your cd. Sounds like Sungenis book might be the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 7 2004, 11:45 PM'] I want something super in depth. The end all of all arguments. I'm sick and tired of not being able to be 100% sure of doctrine. The Baptists tell me I'll go to hell if I become Catholic, and some Catholics tell me I'll probably be in hell if I'm a Baptist. I just ain't laughin' no more. I want the Truth and Jesus is on my side. [/quote] why did Christ come? to establish doctine, or a religion, or a belief-system? any of that? meditate on this for awhile, it's helped me before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 To fulfill the Law, and redeem the world, and open the gates of Heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 9, 2004 Author Share Posted March 9, 2004 [quote name='mulls' date='Mar 8 2004, 05:37 PM'] why did Christ come? to establish doctine, or a religion, or a belief-system? any of that? meditate on this for awhile, it's helped me before. [/quote] To fulfill the law, becoming the atoning sacrifice for our sin and begin a New Covenant in his blood made available to all people. There is probably a thousand answers to that question Above all, he came to establish his church Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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