Dominican Nuns

[osapientia]

[quote name='TradMom' post='1672291' date='Oct 7 2008, 10:00 PM']+Praised be Jesus Christ!

This would be a good and appropriate time to mention my favorite subject, that of age restrictions. Many people seem to think that younger women are better suited for cloistered life and as a result, some communities have restricted all discussion and all possibility for women over a certain age (in some communities, as young as 25!) to even consider life within their community.

Prayers for all,
TradMom[/quote]

I've been thinking about this quite a lot...and I'd like to take a stab at expressing some thoughts that I don't believe have been brought up before. Of course someone else could easily have brought them up but I havn't seen them. So if anyone has already expressed this, please accept my apology in advance for not having noticed.

I was recently directed (via a post here) to a traditional catholic vocations blog. On that blog one of the many things that is mentioned regarding religious vocation is that the "thought" itself is "supernatural" because (and I paraphrase) our "natrual" desires lead us to a more "natural" relationship - i.e. marriage, family etc.

I'd like to expand this just a bit. Given that the desire itself (without consideration of culture) is so special then I believe once cultural influences are added it becomes ever that much MORE special and/or transcendent/supernatrual....particularly given the western culture of our day. It is truly a miracle of God (to me) that anyone ever makes the choice to enter religious life given the outside influences that impact us over and over nowadays.

We are bombarded with choices...so many in fact that I think we're often more paralyzed by this overstimulation than we are motivated by it. Sensory overload indeed!

Here's the "tie in" to age related vocation discussion that I don't think I've seen addressed. I think it's related to potentiality versus actuality - and one is not better than the other. Let me see if I can explain what I mean....

It would be easy to see that a young person with the desire for religious life is clearly acting in a counter cultural way. Certainly our world offers many good things to us...marriage, family, opportunity for career and financial gain (which of course can be a good thing, when properly ordered) etc. One generally looks at the young as FULL of the potential to gain/achieve any one of these good things and so it's easy to see that the young ones entering religoius life are at least in some way making a heroic choice to forgo the potential goods the world has to offer in favor of Jesus, faith, grace, heavenly reward etc. Religious communities need heroic people and we ought to be thankful that young people continue (are re-starting) to enter religious life. This kind of willingness to "give up" for Christ's sake and the sake of His Church is a powerful witness. One might say the young person gives up what "could" reasonably be seen as "theirs for the taking"

But what of the older person.....

Older persons seeking religious life aren't usually giving up potential cultural goods, they give up actual ones. In most cases the older person desiring religious life already knows the joy of married life, family, financial health and prosperity and still he/she is filled with this same supernatural desire as the one who knows this thing only in light of potentiality....the choice the older person makes is the choice to give up something very very real. Is this not also heroic? Is this not also a powerful witness? Do we not also need this witness in our religious communities? I believe we ought to be very thankful that there are those who are willing to give up all the actually possess in order to serve Christ in the His Church.

Succinctly put, I think it could be said that both the young and the old forgo something "natrual" when they choose to follow the supernatural desire for religious life....one gives up the actual "bird in the hand", the other the potential "two in the bush".


Peace

[Laudem Gloriae]

Osapientia said it very well! - "the choice the older person makes is the choice to give up something very very real. Is this not also heroic?" For myself, and many others, giving up the chance to see your kids married, their having children - your grandchildren - holding them and watching them grow, babysitting them and other things like divorces, deaths, anniversaries, etc. is very big. An older person gives up much - house, savings, established career that would have yielded a pension, etc. cherished things like photo albums of your kids, pets they've had for many, many years and the list goes on. The average young person doesn't have half of this.

But all this is offered and given up to God in love to follow His will and your vocation. God DOES call at all ages and in all circumstances.

[Lilllabettt]

You know that feeling you get when others criticize how you're raising your kids and running your family? When people argue with you because you own a tv, or because you don't own one? When your mother-in-law criticizes you because you make things from a box instead of from scratch? Or mom does/doesn't work outside the home? You feel like: "where do these people get off? How can outsiders know what's best for my family? This is what works for us!"

And its true. Unless its something objectively sinful, we have no right, as outsiders, to pass judgment on the internal workings of another family.

The same thing goes for religious communities.

Some communities find internet/blogging doesn't jive with their life. That's fine. Others find it really helpful and not a problem. Only THEY know if its interfering with their lives or "breaking enclosure." They do not need lay people to tell them how a certain practice is impacting their community. They ( and their fellow Sisters) are in a much better position to know.

Often enough, Sisters have to invest considerable time and energy jumping through hoops to make sure lay people aren't scandalized by something perfectly innocent. (I'm not talking about basic manners or religious decorum.) I think that's sad.

As a novice, I was taught that it is considered poor form to criticize the practices of other religious communities, other than to say "that's not for me." (Barring anything objectively sinful of course.)

[osapientia]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1688625' date='Oct 29 2008, 12:21 PM']And its true. Unless its something objectively sinful, we have no right, as outsiders, to pass judgment on the internal workings of another family.

The same thing goes for religious communities.

Often enough, Sisters have to invest considerable time and energy jumping through hoops to make sure lay people aren't scandalized by something perfectly innocent. (I'm not talking about basic manners or religious decorum.) I think that's sad.

As a novice, I was taught that it is considered poor form to criticize the practices of other religious communities, other than to say "that's not for me." (Barring anything objectively sinful of course.)[/quote]

I agree in general with much of what is said in this post, however I must say that I have a nagging sense that something may be just a little bit "off" - for me.

Gossip and judgement are certainly out of place....as is mean spirited criticism when/if it happens......gossip is a sin and some of the other ways in which we judge may be what you mean by "bad form".....but this is a discussion forum so we're bound to see some things we don't like - and we are free, as you did in this post to submit our own view on the matter.

One of the things you mention - and I neglected to copy it into this reply - was that religoius (paraphrase) "do not need lay people to (gosh I can't remember exactly what you said here)...."

I think that sometimes religious do need lay people, we are all part of the same body - as St. Paul points out in the Scripture. Lay people can learn a lot from the religious but I do believe it goes both ways. As for religious having to "jump through hoops"....well if we're going to hold religious life as a "more perfect state" (which I believe we do as Catholics), there is naturally going to be a higher standard for behavior - if religious think they have it hard in this regard, try being a judge in one of our courts....those folks have to avoid every APPEARANCE of impropritey in any number of levels that would not even enter into the experience of a Catholic religious person. Yes there is a highger standard if one takes a higher road.

This also leads me to something else I wanted to discuss...perhaps I should open another thread...I'm uncertain of the "norms" of when something should be cut off from one thread and brought to another....but I'll go forward here and trust that someone will tell me if I should have done otherwise.

I wanted to address the issue of leaving religious life during formation. I think it can resonably be said that for both the old and young who enter formation, many (if not most) leave before vows.......if that weren't true we'd have way more religious than we do. I often hear discussion suggesting reasons why people leave - among them are

-the inability to give up one's own will
-the inability to live in close community with others
-health reasons
-the simple (and often happy) discovery of a different call
-something just "not quite right" for a particular person
-the discernment of the religious community itself

but rarely do I ever hear anyone (particularly any member of a religious community) say something akin to - "perhaps if we'd done this or that differently more people would stay", or "perhaps we need to consider that this or that particular thing needs some renewal". I fully realize that many, many religous communities discuss these things amonst themselves - at least one would hope - but every once in a while I'd like to hear it myself. It would witness volumes to me to know that my sisters in religion are humble enough to look at themselves and admit their failings/quirks/questions to those of us who support and love them and perhaps even one day hope to join them in serving Christ and the Church. I should also make it clear that I am not speaking throwing out a Rule of Life or the constitutions of a community which are juridical in nature and a matter far beyond customs or tradtions....but there are often things that have been "accumulated" over time which can and ought to be carefully considered and discarded/kept as the Spirit leads.

Of course each community has the right and the responsibility to decide what is best for themselves, of course they should not be judged for doing what the Church asks them to do - which (among other things) is to be faithful - TO THE VERY BEST OF THEIR ABILITY - to their call to service.

We ought to be kind to each other, we ought also to know ourselves and be willing to admit our faults to one another....both religious and lay are called to constant conversion in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Peace

[Laudem Gloriae]

Pope John Paul II and the Church talks about the use and abuse of things like the internet and how it can break enclosure and undermine the life of the nuns. Web surfing , posting and such are worldly things that are given up but good orders and anyone truly seeking God. Anyone who plans to enter an enclosed order and has plans to continue such activities or feels the need to visit sites or forums that they did in the world, they should re-evaluate what they really want and see that it is another form of worldly attachment. I have talked to orders that DID have this internet nonsense going on and things started going badly and they even lost a few vocations due to it and have since discontinued it.

How often do you come across a post from someone who is posting something that upsets you or angers you? Perhaps this post comes to your mind several times a day and bothers you and you might find yourself thinking uncharitable thoughts? If this is a nun, her thoughts should be on GOD, what her Mother or novice mistress tells her, helping her sisters, etc. not on some stupid post on some forum she read!



[b]From an Instruction on the Contemplative Life and on the Enclosure of Nuns
by the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life 1999[/b]

"The ancient spiritual tradition of the Church, taken up by the Second Vatican Council, explicitly connects the contemplative life to the prayer of Jesus on the mountain, or solitary place not accessible to all but only to those whom he calls to be with him, apart from the others. The enclosure, even in its physical form, is a special way of being with the Lord, of sharing in Christ's emptying of himself by means of a radical poverty, expressed in renunciation not only of things but also of "space", of contacts, of so many benefits of creation. The monastery is intended to create a space of separation, solitude and silence, where God can be sought more freely in a life not only for him and with him but also in him alone.

Therefore it is necessary that the person, free from all attachment, disquiet or distraction, interior and exterior, may gather her faculties and turn to God to welcome his presence in the joy of adoration and praise.


[b]Pope John Paul II to Nuns: [/b]

"In the monastery everything is directed to the search for the face of God, everything is reduced to the essential, because the only thing that matters is what leads to him. Monastic recollection is attention to the presence of God: if it is dissipated by many things, the journey slows down and the final destination disappears from view.

Contemplative silence can in fact be undermined when noise, news and talk fill the enclosure. With prudent discernment and for everyone's benefit, the use of modern means of communication, such as fax machines, cellular telephones or the [b]Internet, may be permitted in the monastery, for the exchange of information or for reasons of work."[b]

"Internet, may be permitted in the monastery, for the exchange of information or for reasons of work." - this doesn't cover nuns surfing numerous sites - even this one - and posting throughout and then going onto to other forums. The "exchanged of information" is done in emails to vocation inquirers OR if they have a blog - that is updated now and then.

This is not talking badly about religious orders but is a subject that should be looked at and considered as something that is not good in most if not all cases as many orders have discontinued the internet access to it's nuns. If a person is looking to enter an order and continue blogging, surfing, watching movies and other worldly things, that is a problem Why enter an order, just stay home and continue these worldly behaviors.

[Lilllabettt]

Hey you're right. All members of the Body of Christ need each other. Feet without hands leads to some long toenails.

I just really don't think its our place to say what impact something like blogging is having on a community's life. Only the Sisters themselves can know something like that.

I think the main reasons you don't see religious doing self-criticism in public is
1. Many of the "whys" of religious life are difficult to understand/explain unless you've lived it; therefore the usefulness of involving the laity is somewhat limited
2. A perceived need to avoid scandalizing lay people, who, like you said, hold religious to a high standard.
3. In religious life there is a time and place for discussion and criticism. It is to be done at chapter meetings for example, but not in day-to-day living of the life (unless its correction from a Superior.) That's a lot of what obedience is. So "spontaneous" criticism; its avoided, even among religious privately (in my experience.)

[Lilllabettt]

If having a blog causes problems for a community, then obviously they shouldn't have one.

If you feel that the internet would be upsetting to you or distract you from your life then by all means do not enter a community that uses it. Many communities have found it causes more trouble than benefit for them. That's totally fine.

I don't know anybody who has entered a cloister with the idea that they would be surfing their favorite sites afterwards. In fact I don't know of any monastery which allows a Sister to go online for reasons outside of her assigned duty.

All the cloistered communities I know of severely restrict or forbid internet use during formation. A solemnly professed nun may be permitted more lee-way, because she is deemed mature enough to determine where the line should be drawn regarding what is good for her soul and the community's life. She and her community are most certainly better able to make that judgment about it than lay people on an internet forum.

[osapientia]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1688714' date='Oct 29 2008, 02:14 PM']Hey you're right. All members of the Body of Christ need each other. Feet without hands leads to some long toenails.

I just really don't think its our place to say what impact something like blogging is having on a community's life. Only the Sisters themselves can know something like that.

I think the main reasons you don't see religious doing self-criticism in public is
1. Many of the "whys" of religious life are difficult to understand/explain unless you've lived it; therefore the usefulness of involving the laity is somewhat limited
2. A perceived need to avoid scandalizing lay people, who, like you said, hold religious to a high standard.
3. In religious life there is a time and place for discussion and criticism. It is to be done at chapter meetings for example, but not in day-to-day living of the life (unless its correction from a Superior.) That's a lot of what obedience is. So "spontaneous" criticism; its avoided, even among religious privately (in my experience.)[/quote]

I should have been more clear. I would not suggest or expect any specific public self-criticism by religious communities. Just a general - especially on forums like this one - "hey we don't do everything right either and don't forget some people leave formation because we made a mistake or had a blindspot or whatever". If I gave the impression I expected religious to start making wholesale public confessions of their faults, that was my mistake - I do not think that can be expected nor do I think it would necessarily be helpful. Some things are clearly private matters for the community only - as are things in the married and single vocations.

I'm with you on # 1 and 3 above and I understand both those things very well. On #2, I guess I'd just like to say that I think that religious would be pleasantly surprised at the reactions of some of us - again, not that this should be a big public thing - that would be very unfair to expect of a community.

Peace

[praxedes]

As I have mentioned before, I am a member of a religious community and I have the privilege of using the internet with the permission of my superior, with certain conditions, one being that I do not speak of our community by name or with enough detail that anybody would know it (or be able to guess). As a community, we do not blog, though we do have a website. I come to Phatmass every once in a while, and I have used it mainly for the links and information I have found here. Thank you all for that, this has been most helpful for me.

Interestingly enough, when I first came here, everybody in this particular forum ("vocation station") was in an uproar over a thread that included Sister Mary Catharine, and if I am not mistaken, I believe she announced she was leaving Phatmass over it. I guess she meant that she was leaving as a poster, but not as a reader.

As a religious, I would like to point out that there have been many well done posts here, and some wonderful insights. Personally, I am not offended by anybody's opinions, thoughts, beliefs, whatever. Everybody has been polite and aside from when speaking of "official Church doctrine" people here have made it clear they are speaking for themselves. This is what makes a forum, the ability for others to interact, share their opinions and maybe learn something.

Many threads start off on one subject and then move forward, naturally, through conversation, into being about something else. This is natural and happens all over this website as well as on some of the other forums I sometimes visit.

ONE of the most beautiful things about our Church we are preparing to celebrate...the Feast of All Saints. This is a gorgeous metaphor for what religious have to offer. Almost all of our orders were founded by Saints (recognized formally or not!) and this might help explain what I am talking about...

If you are looking into cloistered life and want fun, modern, active Sisters who have embraced the changes the world offers, go for Summit. If you are a hard worker with the ability to chop down a tree (thanks someone for sharing that sweet story) and work a farm, head over to Regina Laudis. If you want a long veil, a full habit and a classroom of adoring kids, make your way to Nashville. If you want a sober, sweetly intimate and classically organized form of life, complete with penance, find your way to one of the 1990 Carmels. If you want to work in prison ministry and fight for peace and justice, look up the CSJ's. If you want monastic life but don't see yourself in a habit and need a foot in the world, the Ferdinand Benedictines might appeal to you. If you identify with the suffering and passion of Christ, and want a tight community experience, with penance and full enclosure, check out the Passionists. If you are attracted to conversion, media, books and music...you can't miss with the Pauline Sisters. If you want to witness through a holy habit and serve God through pro-life ministry in all its forms...Sisters of Life. If you want to remain hidden IN the world, serving all God's people, the Sisters of Social Service, the Adorers of the Blood of Christ, the Sisters of Notre Dame de Namur, the Society of the Holy Child Jesus will welcome you with open arms. And if you are on a second, third, fourth vocation, called to holiness and fullness by Our Lord Christ Jesus, in the cloister with a full bridal gown (habit), and you find constant rejection because of your age, let me invite you to the Church's beloved Visitation Nuns, who have a sense of welcome that surpasses all imagniation.

So, there is something for everything and everyone and in that, we rejoice. In the meantime, we are going to disagree because that happens in life, in community, in church, everywhere we find humans. Deepa is an adult who made an informed decision and choose to share it with the world; obviously it was a fruitful and holy time for her as she speaks well of the Summit Dominicans (and her time there), and apparently, they of her.

I love hearing everybody's thoughts. I thought that was what this forum was for. To share. Just because we don't agree, or we have an opinion, doesn't mean the other is being rude. My reasons for using the internet are personal and I can assure you that permission was given after much deliberation. My particular community does consider using the internet "breaking enclosure" and in many ways, I agree. My time is very limited on this, and I am sure at some point (most likely soon) this will end and I will return to our customs of writing letters only, during very specific times of the year. This life is not for everyone, and it is important that people know what they are "getting into" before they enter. Osapientia, you wrote beautifully and you had many excellent points. I hope readers will be able to fully appreciate your comments.

Our bell is ringing, so I am signing off, but I assure all of you, lay, religious, internet users and those not, you are in our prayers!

Pax,
Praxedes

[the lords sheep]

Thank you for a beautifully expressed post Praxedes!
I love the reflection!

[TradMom]

+Praised be Jesus Christ!

What wonderful posts, including those that have differing opinions. Sister Praxedes, I am going to print out your message and send it to the Mistress of Vocations at both of my daughters' Monasteries....you are so right, there is something for everyone in our holy Mother Church. And, I hope your time on the internet has been fruitful and a blessing!

Right now, my kids are busy putting together their All Saints Day costumes...this year we have a Saint Michael (that's the one that likes playing with swords!), and we have a St. Francis (he is the one that is in charge of our animals at home - don't ask me about the snake in his room!), and we have a beautiful little St. Cecilia (with a beautiful crown of silk flowers she is making herself! with a hot glue gun - under supervision!), and a fierce St. Joan of Arc, and a darling St. Therese! The baby is being dressed as an angel! This time of year is always a wonderful time for our family to be reminded of the variety within the Church. Of course, the younger ones have received that lesson in watching their two older sisters join completely different Orders, but this reaffirms that lesson.

My husband and I are unoriginal - life has been too busy - so we are using our costumes from last year...St. Margaret of Scotland and St. Thomas More.

Blessings to all...what a wonderful opportunity we have in being able to express opinions, thoughts, reactions, etc. We are lucky indeed to live in this country and have access to this kind of exchange.

TradMom

[osapientia]

[quote name='TradMom' post='1689290' date='Oct 30 2008, 01:57 PM']+Praised be Jesus Christ!
Blessings to all...what a wonderful opportunity we have in being able to express opinions, thoughts, reactions, etc. We are lucky indeed to live in this country and have access to this kind of exchange.

TradMom[/quote]

TradMom, can I come to your house sometime in the next two days? I'd love to see all those costumes...sounds like great fun.

Peace

[Laudem Gloriae]

Yes, Tradmom the Dominican nuns of Menlo Park are mostly a full habited community - 2-3 our of 11 or so only wear the modified veil, the rest are in the beautiful full traditional Dominican habit.

See my separate thread on them that gives a link to a vocation CD-ROM they sent me and that I downloaded. I spent a week with them.

[DameAgnes]

I've appreciated the civility of this thread, too, Tradmom (and your house sounds like a blast at halloween.)

Just one quick thought. I can think of one cloistered nun I am very happy broke her enclosure, and that would be Mother Angelica. She's done a world of good by utlitizing what the world offered, to bring people back to the faith. I'm always reminded, when I think of her, of what St. Benedict said, about how an Abbess or Abbot is permitted to use whatever is before him or her to strengthen the community. Wonderful.

There really is a "community for everyone."