Heresy...at Church?!

[Domine ut Videam]

i think that this needs to be moved to the debate table

[BG45]

[quote name='Domine ut Videam' post='1666971' date='Sep 30 2008, 03:07 PM']i think that this needs to be moved to the debate table [/quote]

But then the lack of charity might cause it to be locked. And then everyone would have to back up their claims with "mountains of evidence".

[MissyP89]

My Catholic school friends are no longer Catholic. My mother was beaten there growing up, and as for religious education, I was raised Catholic and didn't know what Adoration was until I joined this board.

If parents do their jobs as the "first teachers of the Faith," I think they would be just as well-off spiritually and educationally if they went to public school.

[Pontifex]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1666402' date='Sep 29 2008, 05:44 PM']Bless you father, I have seen few Pastors who wupported there schools, most don't want to be trouble with them.
I agree with you about people not wanting to make sacrifices.

I was really disgusted to hear people tell me that they couldn't afford to send there child to Catholic school, and then see them in there 40,000 dollar SUV.[/quote]

Exactly. Catholic tuition is a sacrifice. We have a tuition policy that caters to families, in fact it is designed to benefit traditional Catholic families. We have one price per family (2700) per year. If you have one or 5 kids in school it is the same price. The logic is simple; if you have one child, you can afford to more than a bigger family. (In theory) I teach 5th-8th grade religion and I have school mass on Thursdays. We also have adoration time with each grade on fridays.

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1666414' date='Sep 29 2008, 05:57 PM']Father, while this may be the case in parts of the country, it has not been in my experience. At my school there are several Christian organizations and multiple events (FCA, See You At The Pole both come to mind) in which one is free to pray and to talk about his faith. As a matter of fact, where I come from, we seem to have a problem with teachers erring on the side of being so-called "Bible thumpers" than we do being secular and liberal.[/quote]

See you at the Pole: i.e. Let's get outside the school building where it's legal to pray. Also those Christian organizations are outliers. They are not apart of the school and the only people they reach are Christians. I went to a public school for one year (sr. high school) What an eye opener.

Seems like many people here are cynical about their own Catholic education. Yeah, me too, but we can't turn the education of our children over to the government. I understand the lament over the past 30 years in C.E. but we must take it by the horns and use this amazing opportunity to evangelize. Don't sleep, support your Catholic schools and pray for them. Reform is on the way!!!! I promise. It's happening at my place everyday.

In Christ,

Fr. Burns

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1666918' date='Sep 30 2008, 12:50 PM']My views are extreme and offensive? Wow I am sure that Blessed John XXIII would be shocked to know that, after all he was Pope when this was still the policy of the Church in America.[/quote]

So Blessed John said all that about public schools, eh?

[quote]I know a lot about Catholic schools, and I know that they are hardly perfect. Do your parents attend Church? Despite the "abuse"? Then the school did it's job.[/quote]

So even though my parents were subject to abuse (at such an important time of one's development, mind you) it's okay, because they go to Church? It's amazing that they didn't turn from the Church! My dad actually ran to a public school after a year or two of the garbage he went through. To this day, he actually has a disliking for nuns, how terrible is that? He told me once that if I ever became a nun, then there is hope for the world yet (or something to that effect).

[quote]There is a mountian of evidence that children who attend Catholic schools are more likely to attend Church, are more likely to be involved with other Catholic activities and give more to the Church.[/quote]

Really? The amount of kids who attend our Catholic grammar school (and those who attend Catholic high schools in the nearby area) are either equal to or less than the public school kids I see. (Remember, my town is very small, and it's very nosy, so everyone pretty much knows who attends what school.) My parish has four Masses during the weekend, and I have been to a good amount of all four Masses to make this assessment. As for Catholic activities, when I attended the youth group (which wasn't so hot by the way), the majority were from my public high school. In fact, by the time I was a senior, our youth group president and "board" was completely made up of public school kids.

But I am rather interested in this evidence. Can I see a reliable source, please?

[quote]There is also a great deal of evidence that they are fantasic tools for evangilization, that non-catholics who attend them convert at a substantially higher rate than those that don't.[/quote]

Source.

[quote]Are there individual problems in schools, of course, all kinds of garbage happens at Catholic schools, of course, compared to what happens at the average Public school it is small potatoes.[/quote]

And....source.

[quote]AS for wether or not you recieved an excellent education in your public school, well I have never been to your school, so I can't say. But in my experiance those that say " I got an excellent education at my public school" who left highschool since 1970 or so, didn't get that good an education. Still there are exceptions, and I truly am happy if you are one of them.[/quote]

Being involved in almost every single band extracurricular (concert band, orchestra, marching band), the chorus for a few years, experience with the track team (either running or doing management), plus excelling in honors and AP classes, landing myself in a terrific [b]Catholic[/b] university and pulling one semester of a perfect GPA plus a handful of Dean's List appearances, I would say that yes, my public school taught me how to apply myself, how to be independent, how to study, etc.

[quote]Can you share how you found your faith at the school were it is technically illegal to say what is and is not right and wrong? Yes I have been though this with State lawyers.[/quote]

Illegal? I remember studying cultures and aspects of their religions in English and History classes. I remember a Christian Bible group who met every week. I remember writing essays - we were allowed to pick our topic - about God and being allowed to write about this topic.

Edited September 30, 2008 by HisChildForever

[Paddington]

Public school kids can, outside of the classroom, learn the faith and attend Mass and Confession. Results are more to do with the parents and kids than with the school.

Money is a thing. Lots of the same people who think so highly about Catholic schools also encourage you to have 10 kids. They might even want you to have excellent health coverage, retirement investements, various insurances, college fund for the kiddies, live in a safe neighborhood, leave an inheritance for children and their children and give at least a tithe and tell you how each one is a positive, moral act. (I believe each one is for the record.)

[Paddington]

Why did you put "abuse" in quotes?

Edited September 30, 2008 by Paddington

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
i know that in my Catholic School system, that the more kids you have in the system, the less tuition is for each child.

[Church Punk]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1665745' date='Sep 28 2008, 03:45 PM']I'm so sick of the protestantization within the Church in America.
[/quote]

Not just America but the world over also

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Excelsior1027' post='1666965' date='Sep 30 2008, 01:55 PM']Small potatoes? From what I hear, the amount of "garbage" that goes on in Catholic schools compared to public schools (at least in my diocese) really isn't all that different. Neither is the quality. Also, just because kids who go to Catholic school go to Mass doesn't mean that it's because of the effects of the Catholic school. Most likely it's for the same reason that they're in Catholic school in the first place: their parents make them go. I'd like to see this "mountain of evidence" you speak of.

I know several Catholic families who have home-schooled. Almost all of their kids are not only still Catholic and attend Mass, they are very zealous and devout Catholics and do a great amount of work and evangelization for the Church. The turnout in those families sure seems proportionally better than in Catholic schools.[/quote]


Here are some links to the general academic superiority of Catholic schools:[url="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0377/is_n127/ai_19416359"]Here[/url]


[url="http://www.nyu.edu/public.affairs/releases/detail/269"]Another[/url]

Private school in general though statistical referances to Roman Catholic schools are included. This info is from the early 90's but still concidered "recent" by scholars.

[url="http://www.publicpurpose.com/pp-edpp.htm"]here[/url]



An interesting article regarding the religious effectiveness of Catholic schools, however it is in Australia--- still I think not irrelevent.

[url="http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/2001/oct2001p10_682.html"]here[/url]


Here is an article of the exact subject from a book on the subject. it starts on pg 234.

[url="http://books.google.com/books?id=D0rcHqH1xVQC&pg=PA235&lpg=PA235&dq=Catholic+school+attendance+correlation+with+later+church+attendance+United+states&source=web&ots=4LoOdqgiag&sig=sz9G-jLO21_9c1LBF6-JnLJjeug&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result#PPA234,M1"]here[/url]

now that required 15 minutes on google.


I will have to look for the study out of Notre Dame I have that in hard copy at home.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1667032' date='Sep 30 2008, 03:19 PM']So Blessed John said all that about public schools, eh?



So even though my parents were subject to abuse (at such an important time of one's development, mind you) it's okay, because they go to Church? It's amazing that they didn't turn from the Church! My dad actually ran to a public school after a year or two of the garbage he went through. To this day, he actually has a disliking for nuns, how terrible is that? He told me once that if I ever became a nun, then there is hope for the world yet (or something to that effect).



Really? The amount of kids who attend our Catholic grammar school (and those who attend Catholic high schools in the nearby area) are either equal to or less than the public school kids I see. (Remember, my town is very small, and it's very nosy, so everyone pretty much knows who attends what school.) My parish has four Masses during the weekend, and I have been to a good amount of all four Masses to make this assessment. As for Catholic activities, when I attended the youth group (which wasn't so hot by the way), the majority were from my public high school. In fact, by the time I was a senior, our youth group president and "board" was completely made up of public school kids.

But I am rather interested in this evidence. Can I see a reliable source, please?



Source.



And....source.



Being involved in almost every single band extracurricular (concert band, orchestra, marching band), the chorus for a few years, experience with the track team (either running or doing management), plus excelling in honors and AP classes, landing myself in a terrific [b]Catholic[/b] university and pulling one semester of a perfect GPA plus a handful of Dean's List appearances, I would say that yes, my public school taught me how to apply myself, how to be independent, how to study, etc.



Illegal? I remember studying cultures and aspects of their religions in English and History classes. I remember a Christian Bible group who met every week. I remember writing essays - we were allowed to pick our topic - about God and being allowed to write about this topic.[/quote]

According to the State Of Texas's Att. General it is a violation of Federal law for a teacher to tell a student that an action is right or wrong, that is a directly religious position. One may say what is ethical and unethical, but not right or wrong.

A Christian Bible group has the right to meet on school grounds AFTER school if other groups are allowed to use the school grounds. However, this cannot be done during school at all, ever, that would be illegal. I am a certified public school principal---- this is something I know about.

Writing about God is of questionable legality. the specifics of the assignment would be very important. And I mean really, really important.

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='Excelsior1027' post='1666835' date='Sep 30 2008, 11:16 AM']Um...huh??[/quote]

There's definatly some extremism going on becuase ordinary catholic schools are not meeting parents desire's and they develop more drasic ideas. parents who want to get their children away from the loose morals in public school and the lack of quality education in private schools will homeschool. Not everyone can homeschool, so splinter groups develop. Thises splinter groups attract weak parents who don't know much about the faith into a kind of wierd catholic extremism that is just creepy. I've seen it happen many times and its sad. Only when catholics go extreme they dress in long skirts, protest at abortion clinics and refuse to participate in current american ways of life. ITs like those mormans in texas but without the forced icolation.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1667035' date='Sep 30 2008, 03:23 PM']Why did you put "abuse" in quotes?[/quote]


Simply put, because I am suspicious of all Catholic school abuse stories. I have heard some really impressive stories about classrooms, THAT I WAS SITTING IN AT THE TIME IT "HAPPENED".

Many are gross exaggerations, others are out of context, others are simply untrue, some indeed happened exactly that way. Of course, what was abuse 40 years ago was significantly differant than what people view it today. Public schools were hardly gentle. I can tell you lots of things that would now be concidered abusive that happened in public schools of the past. How about locking 6 year olds in the furnace room with no light for hours, or hanging them by their shirt collars in the coat closet in then locking them in for hours on end. That teacher taught for 40 years, she also boxed ears, hit students in the face with textbooks etc. etc. No one thought it was abusive.

Edited September 30, 2008 by Don John of Austria

[Ash Wednesday]

:|

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1667121' date='Sep 30 2008, 03:26 PM']Only when catholics go extreme they dress in long skirts, protest at abortion clinics and refuse to participate in current american ways of life. ITs like those mormans in texas but without the forced icolation.[/quote]

um, dressing in long skirts is awesome and a wonderful testament to modesty.

protesting at abortion clinics is practically the duty of every Christian.

if you don't understand why people may not participate in certain events because of their moral standing, well that indicates your understanding and charity.

many of these "extremist" (to you) home schooled families are models of Christianity we should be imitating. granted there are some who are so extreme in that some of what they do is contrary to Church teaching..