Desecration Of The Eucharist

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1663812' date='Sep 25 2008, 08:12 PM']Christ asked this of Peter because Christ had to go to His crucifixion, Christ can not nor should be recrucified.

Yes, [b]if the situation[/b] called for it I would use deadly force to protect the Body of Christ, in the Eucharist, and the in people of the parish.[/quote]

yeah it's ironic, ansering this poll and then looking at what jesus said, it really boils down to what the purpose of the atonement was. ie whether itw as necessary for propiation as the west says or not as teh east says.

and then, why he didn't want peter to not attack. was it because he wanted to be an example of peace?
i'd think that was teh case, cause i'd think peter was justified to attack. maybe the west's notio of atonment has more merit than i realize.
even if he was justified to attack, he'd be justified even if it was teh atonment impending.

i don't understand why he had ot be killed at the hands of people. sacrafices are usually given from those who are trying to appease God.

it's all a mess and seems pretty convoluted when we dont know God's premises.

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

I answered no. I have no problem using force to protect the Eucharist, but using force to kill doesn't seem like it would be necessary. Most who, God forgive them, desecrate the Eucharist, problably wouldn't be willing to die in order to do it.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Knight of the Holy Rosary' post='1664347' date='Sep 26 2008, 03:52 PM']I answered no. I have no problem using force to protect the Eucharist, but using force to kill doesn't seem like it would be necessary. Most who, God forgive them, desecrate the Eucharist, problably wouldn't be willing to die in order to do it.[/quote]


But the question didn't say kill, it said use deadly force. Which is normally thought of as using force which could resonably cause death. Punching someone would not be deadly force ( though people can die from that) but say hitting them in the chest with a sledge hammer would be, it may or may not kill, but it will definantly "take the desecrator out of the Man".

[LouisvilleFan]

What is the Principle of Forfeiture?

I see no justification for deadly force in protecting the Blessed Sacrament. Nobody's life is endangered by descreating the Eucharist, so why kill a life in attempting to protect it? What we [i]are[/i] called to is martyrdom to protect the Eucharist and any other Catholic doctrine or sacrament. If you truly love the Eucharist, then model Christ's humility and love offered through this sacrament, by being willing to freely offer your own life at the hands of sinners just as Christ offered up his at the hands of sinners.

[picchick]

I do not think that DEADLY force should be used. However, I believe that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. I would defend Him within reason in any sitaution. However, I do not think that deadly force is necessary. Maybe force but not deadly.

Edited September 26, 2008 by picchick

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1664395' date='Sep 26 2008, 05:00 PM']What is the Principle of Forfeiture?

I see no justification for deadly force in protecting the Blessed Sacrament. Nobody's life is endangered by descreating the Eucharist, so why kill a life in attempting to protect it? What we [i]are[/i] called to is martyrdom to protect the Eucharist and any other Catholic doctrine or sacrament. If you truly love the Eucharist, then model Christ's humility and love offered through this sacrament, by being willing to freely offer your own life at the hands of sinners just as Christ offered up his at the hands of sinners.[/quote]


First let me appologize for saying Principal instead of Principle. I can't believe i did that.

The Principle of Forfeiture is a tenet of Natural Law theory that says basically, that there are actions which people can take by which they forfeit there own right to live. Thus one does not have to worry about the Principle of Double Effect, they have forfeited their own right to live and therefore they can be killed. This is a major reason why capital punishment has always been accepted by the Church, and is totally in keeping with Church teaching. However, it makes many moderns quite uneasy.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='picchick' post='1664401' date='Sep 26 2008, 05:11 PM']I do not think that DEADLY force should be used. However, I believe that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. I would defend Him within reason in any sitaution. However, I do not think that deadly force is necessary. Maybe force but not deadly.[/quote]


Well how much force might be necessary?

[picchick]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1664406' date='Sep 26 2008, 05:16 PM']Well how much force might be necessary?[/quote]
Taking the Eucharist from their hands. Wrestling them for the Eucharist. Nothing that would cause physical harm to the other person.

I think too that it depends on the situation. What are the intentions of the person? Do they know what they are doing? Are they purposefully desecrating the Eucharist because they want to prove something (that one professor)?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='picchick' post='1664446' date='Sep 26 2008, 05:35 PM']Taking the Eucharist from their hands. Wrestling them for the Eucharist. Nothing that would cause physical harm to the other person.

I think too that it depends on the situation. What are the intentions of the person? Do they know what they are doing? Are they purposefully desecrating the Eucharist because they want to prove something (that one professor)?[/quote]


Thats why i gave a possibly choice.


About 15 years ago Satanist ( yes believe it or not they really exist) broke into my Church. they cut through the side of the Vault to get the holy vessals and broke open the tabernacle ( they left the several thousand dollars in cash from the collection) and desecrated the Eucharist with feces and urine, and took some of the Host with them. The Police told my pastor that it had been an issue in the area in the past and that the Cult apparantly used the Holy Vessals for the Black Mass. The expectation was that the Eucharist that was taken would be subject to ritualized desecration.

So had come along in my truck when that was happening how much force would be appropraite?

[picchick]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1664454' date='Sep 26 2008, 05:43 PM']Thats why i gave a possibly choice.


About 15 years ago Satanist ( yes believe it or not they really exist) broke into my Church. they cut through the side of the Vault to get the holy vessals and broke open the tabernacle ( they left the several thousand dollars in cash from the collection) and desecrated the Eucharist with feces and urine, and took some of the Host with them. The Police told my pastor that it had been an issue in the area in the past and that the Cult apparantly used the Holy Vessals for the Black Mass. The expectation was that the Eucharist that was taken would be subject to ritualized desecration.

So had come along in my truck when that was happening how much force would be appropraite?[/quote]

I know that they exist It really makes me mad. It happened a couple times in my diocese.

I guess what I'd do is use a ladder type thing. If you saw them leaving the Church I'd call the cops let them know what was happening. Then I'd try to stop them to the best of my ability. I would follow them in my car so that I could tell the cops where they went.

See the desecration of the Eucharist makes me very upset. By upset I mean angry. By angry I mean throw punches angry. I am not sure that God would want me to cause physical harm to another for His sake. I kinda draw from what the Saints have done. They didn't mind if they themselves got hurt but they would not hurt another for the sake of the Eucharist. God doesn't strike dead those who desecrate Him so I am not going to.

I don't think I am answering your question specifically enough. I have parameters (probably more personal than something that everyone should use) that I would follow when defending the Eucharist.

Meg

[Winchester]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1664405' date='Sep 26 2008, 05:15 PM']First let me appologize for saying Principal instead of Principle. I can't believe i did that.[/quote]
I can.

[Hassan]

hm

Muslims who would kill to defend the Qur'an from desecration are "terrorists", or "Islamofascists" or "Islamic radicals"

What does a willingness to kill to defend the Eucharist make those of you here who say you'd kill to defend it?

[philothea]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1665301' date='Sep 27 2008, 09:10 PM']hm

Muslims who would kill to defend the Qur'an from desecration are "terrorists", or "Islamofascists" or "Islamic radicals"

What does a willingness to kill to defend the Eucharist make those of you here who say you'd kill to defend it?[/quote]


The Qur'an is a book. No one is talking about violence to protect the Bible.

[Hassan]

[quote name='philothea' post='1665511' date='Sep 27 2008, 10:48 PM']

The Qur'an is a book. No one is talking about violence to protect the Bible.[/quote]

The Eucharist is a piece of bread.

We can all deconstruct other religions beleifs. Muslims hold the Qur'an about as dearly as many Catholics hold the Eucharist. Catholics do not hold the Bible to be as sacred as Muslims hold the Qur'an. You all do not beleive the apperance of the Bible to be the great miricle of salvation history or it to be the literal dictation of God.

I just find the hypocracy staggering. People on here who constantly warn of the "Islamic Threat" saying they would use violence to protect the Eucharist. If this were a Muslim community refering to an individual desecrative the Qur'an they'd be labled fanatics (by many of the very people here willing to kill for the Eucharist).


I just find it shocking.

[picchick]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1665515' date='Sep 27 2008, 11:55 PM']The Eucharist is a piece of bread.

We can all deconstruct other religions beleifs. Muslims hold the Qur'an about as dearly as many Catholics hold the Eucharist. Catholics do not hold the Bible to be as sacred as Muslims hold the Qur'an. You all do not beleive the apperance of the Bible to be the great miricle of salvation history or it to be the literal dictation of God.

I just find the hypocracy staggering. People on here who constantly warn of the "Islamic Threat" saying they would use violence to protect the Eucharist. If this were a Muslim community refering to an individual desecrative the Qur'an they'd be labled fanatics (by many of the very people here willing to kill for the Eucharist).


I just find it shocking.[/quote]

What events are you referring to? If you are referring to the terrorist attacks and those who bomb their cities it is totally not the same thing. They are not protecting anything. Instead they are FOLLOWING what the Quran is telling them to do. If someone were to desecrate their sacred book then it would not be called "irradical". They would PROTECTING their sacred object. There is a difference.

Irradical is the killing of people who had nothing to do with the Quran. Those in the WTC were not desecrating the Quran....those in the pentagon were not desecrating the Quran. Those in the public square in where ever people are bombing themselves are not protecting the Quran.

I do not think that deadly force should be used, as I have stated above. I think that we need to protect what we hold sacred, which we believe is the Body and Blood, Soul Divinity of Christ. If you do not hold that belief, you are still obligated to respect our belief, just as we are obligated respect other's belief.

Meg