The Immaculate Conception

[Selah]

I know that the Immaculate Conception is a Church doctrine, but I am learning that many Church Fathers did not teach this as well! Some believed and some didn't. They seemed to be split on the idea.

For:

St. Athanasius

He (Christ) took it (His body) from a pure and unstained Virgin, who had not known man. (On the Incarnation of the Word, 8; Gambero, 102)

O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides. (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71, 216; Gambero, 106)

St. Ephraem

Mary and Eve, two people without guilt, two simple people, were identical. Later, however, one became the cause of our death, the other the cause of our life (Op. syr. II, 327; Ott, 201)

The Virgin Mary is a symbol of the Church, when she receives the first announcement of the gospel . . . We call the Church by the name of Mary, for she deserves a double name. (Sermo ad noct. Resurr.; Gambero, 115)

Thou and thy mother are the only ones who are totally beautiful in every respect; for in thee, O Lord, there is no spot, and in thy Mother no stain. (Nisibene Hymns, 27, v. 8; Ott, 201)


St. Cyril of Jerusalem

Pure and spotless is this birth. For where the Holy Spirit breathes, all pollution is taken away, so that the human birth of the Only-begotten from the Virgin is undefiled. (Catechetical Lectures, XII, 31-32; Gambero, 140)

St. Gregory Nazianzen

He was conceived by the Virgin, who had first been purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor. (Sermon 38, 13; Gambero, 162-163)

St. Gregory of Nyssa

It was, to divulge by the manner of His Incarnation this great secret; that purity is the only complete indication of the presence of God and of His coming, and that no one can in reality secure this for himself, unless he has altogether estranged himself from the passions of the flesh. What happened in the stainless Mary when the fulness of the Godhead which was in Christ shone out through her, that happens in every soul that leads by rule the virgin life. (On Virginity, 2; NPNF 2, Vol. V, 344)

[T]he power of the Most High, through the Holy Spirit, overshadowed the human nature and was formed therein; that is to say, the portion of flesh was formed in the immaculate Virgin. (Against Apollinaris, 6; Gambero, 153)

St. Ambrose

. . . Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin. (Commentary on Psalm 118, 22, 30; Jurgens, II, 166)

What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? (Virginity, II, 6; NPNF 2, Vol. X, 374)

St. Epiphanius

Mary, the holy Virgin, is truly great before God and men. For how shall we not proclaim her great, who held within her the uncontainable One, whom neither heaven nor earth can contain? (Panarion, 30, 31; Gambero, 127)

St. Jerome

'There shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a flower shall grow out of his roots.' The rod is the mother of the Lord--simple, pure, unsullied; drawing no germ of life from without but fruitful in singleness like God Himself... Set before you the blessed Mary, whose surpassing purity made her meet to be the mother of the Lord. (Letter XXII. To Eustochium, 19, 38; NPNF 2, Vol. VI, 29, 39; cf. Gambero, p. 213: “whose purity was so great that she merited to be the Mother of the Lord”)

Indeed how inferior they are, in terms of holiness, to blessed Mary, Mother of the Lord! (Contra Pelagianos, 1, 16; Gambero, 212)

St. Cyril of Alexandria

Hail, Mary Theotokos, Virgin-Mother, lightbearer, uncorrupt vessel . . . Hail Mary, you are the most precious creature in the whole world; hail, Mary, uncorrupt dove; hail, Mary, inextinguishable lamp; for from you was born the Sun of justice . . . Through you, every faithful soul achieves salvation. (Homily 11 at the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus; Gambero, 243, 245)

I see the assembly of the saints, all zealously gathered together, invited by the holy Mother of God, Mary, ever-virgin . . . We hail you, O Mary Mother of God, venerable treasure of the entire world, inextinguishable lamp, crown of virginity, scepter of orthodoxy, imperishable temple, container of him who cannot be contained . . . Through you, the Holy Trinity is glorified; the precious Cross is celebrated and adored throughout the world; heaven exults, the angels and archangels rejoice, the demons are put to flight, the devil, the tempter, falls from heaven, the fallen creation is brought back to paradise, all creatures trapped in idolatry come to know of the truth. (Homily IV Preached at Ephesus Against Nestorius; Gambero, 247-248)

Theodotus

"Hail, O full of grace, the Lord is with you, you are blessed" (Lk 1:28), O most beautiful and most noble among women. The Lord is with you, O all-holy one, glorious and good. The Lord is with you, O worthy of praise, O incomparable, O more than glorious, all splendor, worthy of God, worthy of all blessedness . . . spouse of God, divinely nourished treasure. To you I announce neither a conception in wickedness nor a birth in sin; instead, I bring the joy that puts an end to Eve's sorrow. To you I proclaim neither a trying pregnancy nor a painful delivery . . . Through you, Eve's odious condition is ended; through you, abjection has been destroyed; through you, error is dissolved; through you, sorrow is abolished; through you, condemnation has been erased. Through you, Eve has been redeemed. (On the Mother of God and the Nativity; Gambero, 271)

A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns. (Homily VI, 11; O’Carroll, 339)

If iron, once joined to fire, immediately expels the impurities extraneous to its nature and swiftly acquires a likeness to the powerful flame that heats it, . . . how much more, in a superior way, did the Virgin burn when the divine fire (the Holy Spirit) rushed in? She was purified from earthly impurities, and from whatever might be against her nature, and was restored to her original beauty, so as to become inaccessible, untouchable, and irreconcilable to carnal things. (Homily 4, 6; Gambero, 264)

Innocent virgin, spotless, without defect, untouched, unstained, holy in body and in soul, like a lily-flower sprung among thorns, unschooled in the wickedness of Eve . . . clothed with divine grace as with a cloak . . . (Homily 6, 11; Gambero, 268)

Pope St. Leo the Great

For the uncorrupt nature of Him that was born had to guard the primal virginity of the Mother, and the infused power of the Divine Spirit had to preserve in spotlessness and holiness that sanctuary which He had chosen for Himself . . . (Sermon XXII: On the Feast of the Nativity, Part II; NPNF 2, Vol. XII)

St. Sophronius

Others before you have flourished with outstanding holiness. But to none as to you has the fullness of grace been given. None has been endowed with happiness as you, none adorned with holiness like yours, none brought to such great magnificence as yours; no one was ever possessed beforehand by purifying grace as were you . . . And this deservedly, for no one came as close to God as you did; no one was enriched with God's gifts as you were; no one shared God's grace as you did. (In SS Deip. Annunt. 22; O'Carroll, 329)

St. Andrew of Crete

Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God. . . . The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation. (Homily 1 on Mary’s Nativity; O’Carroll, 180)

. . . alone wholly without stain . . . (Canon for the Conception of Anne; Graef, 152)

St. John Damascene

O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew. (Homily I on the Nativity of Mary; O’Carroll, 200; cf. Graef, 154; Gambero, 402)

(Graef, 154)
She is all beautiful, all near to God. For she, surpassing the cherubim, exalted beyond the seraphim, is placed near to God. (Homily on the Nativity, 9; Gambero, 403)


Against:

Clement of Alexandrea- "The Word, Jesus Christ was alone born without sin."

Augustine of Hippo- "He, Christ alone, being made a man but remaining God, never had any sin, nor did he take on flesh of sin, though he took flesh of the sin of his mother."

St. Amobrose- "Of all that are born of women, the holy Lord Jesus was the only one who experienced not the contagion of earthly corruption."

St. Bernard- "For this reason, our astonishment is not small in seeing that some of your are believed to be able to introduce a new feast that is unknown to the rite of the Church, that cannot be approved by reason, that it is condemned by the ancient traditions [scriptures], the Feast of the Immaculate Conception."

St. Thomas Aquinas- "What honor shoud we believe in attributing to Mary that honor may be had for her conception, which was anterior to her birth? Because without this conception neither her birth should be honored. Then would you say if others, according to your own reasoning, were to mantain that it is necessary to hold feasts in honor of her parents, this is logical. Then it would be necessary to honer her grandparents, and her great-grandparents; and there would be no end at all. There would be feasts without number on the earth and it would be converted into a paradise."

Peter Lombard- "But this is asked, on what account and whence is it that Mary was conceived without original sin? We say this was impossible."

Melchior Cannas- "The dogma that holds the blessed Virgin was free from the original sin was nowhere delivered in Holy Scripture!"

St. Antoninus- "If the Scriptures are duly considered, and the sayings of the doctors ancient and modern who have been devoted to the glorious Virgin- it is plain from their word she was conceived in sin."

Leo I- "The Lord Jesus Christ alone among the sons of men was born without sin."

Pope Gallatus- "It belongs to the immaculate Lamb to have no sin."

Gragory I- "Christ alone was truly born holy."

Innocent III- "Eve was produced without sin, but she brought forth in sin. Mary was brought forth in sin, but she brought forth without sin."

They seemed split, you see. How can we know that this was indeed a doctrine taught by the Early Christians?

Edited September 24, 2008 by Selah

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Selah' post='1662558' date='Sep 24 2008, 08:54 AM']They seemed split, you see. How can we know that this was indeed a doctrine taught by the Early Christians?[/quote]

The Church Fathers disagreed on a whole lot of things, and it's important to remember that some of the men who are regarded as Fathers (such as Origen) died in a state of apostacy. They debated these topics like do today. The important thing is to look for some sort of consistency, especially among the most highly regarded Fathers (i.e. bishops, saints, etc.) and to evaluate the arguments themselves to determine what holds more water. The reasons for and against the Immaculate Conception should provide more clarity as to why the Church finally decided, in due time, that it is true. Part of the reason is that science had to develop to a point that we could define human conception and the point at which it actually occurs.

[Mr.Cat]

I personally feel that the sources of these quotes are necessary, in particular those suggested to be opposing the doctrine concerning Our Lady’s Immaculate Conception. [u]I am not suggesting these quotations are fabricated[/u], but it does seem on the surface of my investigation that these quotes are not appearing in general searches and some of these persons appear questionable.

[quote name='Selah' post='1662558' date='Sep 24 2008, 07:54 AM']Pope St. Leo the Great

For the uncorrupt nature of Him that was born had to guard the primal virginity of the Mother, and the infused power of the Divine Spirit had to preserve in spotlessness and holiness that sanctuary which He had chosen for Himself . . . (Sermon XXII: On the Feast of the Nativity, Part II; NPNF 2, Vol. XII)[/quote][quote name='Selah' post='1662558' date='Sep 24 2008, 07:54 AM']Leo I- "The Lord Jesus Christ alone among the sons of men was born without sin."[/quote]For example, [b]Pope Leo I[/b] is in fact [b][url="http://saints.sqpn.com/saintl04.htm"]Pope Saint Leo the Great[/url][/b], [b][u]whom is listed in favor of such doctrine of the Immaculate Conception in this topic[/u][/b]. How could he oppose and support the same doctrine?

[quote name='Selah' post='1662558' date='Sep 24 2008, 07:54 AM']Pope Gallatus- "It belongs to the immaculate Lamb to have no sin."[/quote][u]Another example could be “[i]Pope Gallatus[/i]” who does not appear in the [url="http://saints.sqpn.com/pope0000.htm"]successors[/url] of [b][url="http://saints.sqpn.com/saintp07.htm"]Pope Saint Peter the Apostle[/url][/b][/u]. Possibly this person could be [b][url="http://saints.sqpn.com/saintg2i.htm"]Pope Saint Gelasius I[/url][/b] but simply misspelled. Again, I am having difficulty finding works and moreover this attributed quotation. Also, how does this oppose the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?

[quote name='Selah' post='1662558' date='Sep 24 2008, 07:54 AM']Gragory I- "Christ alone was truly born holy."[/quote]Still again another example in this mix of quotations is of "[i]Gragory I[/i]", whom I assume again on account of misspelling is [b]Pope Gregory I[/b], whom is also known as [b][url="http://saints.sqpn.com/saintg02.htm"]Pope Saint Gregory the Great[/url][/b]. This atrributed quotation I am having diffculity finding, like some of these comments, [b][u]but it seems ambigous and difficult to propose this as “opposed” to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception[/u][/b].

[quote name='Selah' post='1662558' date='Sep 24 2008, 07:54 AM']St. Antoninus- "If the Scriptures are duly considered, and the sayings of the doctors ancient and modern who have been devoted to the glorious Virgin- it is plain from their word she was conceived in sin."[/quote]Then a person like “[i]Saint Antoninus[/i]” I have little idea who they could be. Unless they are [b][url="http://saints.sqpn.com/sainta8c.htm"]Saint Antoninus of Sorrento[/url][/b]. But he does not really seem like one of the major Church Fathers. In fact the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/index.html"]New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia[/url] does not even list him as a Church Father. [u]Not that this disquilifies him from being a Church Father[/u], and again I cant find any works he did or this quotation in particular.

[quote name='Selah' post='1662558' date='Sep 24 2008, 07:54 AM']St. Amobrose- "Of all that are born of women, the holy Lord Jesus was the only one who experienced not the contagion of earthly corruption."[/quote]Then [i]Saint Amobrose[/i] I would only assume is [b][url="http://saints.sqpn.com/sainta07.htm"]Saint Ambrose of Milan[/url][/b] who is quoted on [url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html"]ScriptureCatholic[/url] with "[i]Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.[/i]" Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388). But how does this connect with Our Lady's Immaculate Conception?

I personally feel that the sources of these quotes should be proposed. [u]I am not suggesting these quotations are fabricated[/u] but there is certainly reasonable doubt in my opinion concerning their validity. While I did not address each “objector” or “objection” individually it seems to me that having the sources accessible is the proper first step to a response.

[b][u]Disagreements in the early Church happened frequently and our understanding of some doctrines took time to formulate[/u][/b]. Likewise, this matter was definitively defined ([i]ex cathedra[/i]) by [b][url="http://saints.sqpn.com/saintp0l.htm"]Blessed Pope Pius IX[/url][/b]: "[b][color="#FF0000"]We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful.[/color][/b]" ([url="http://saints.sqpn.com/bvm00013.htm"]Ineffabilis Deus[/url]: Friday, December 8, 1854)

[i]This was one hundred and fifty three years, nine months, and sixteen days ago; Or fifty six thousand[color="#C0C0C0"],[/color] one hundred and seventy three days ago. As a [url="http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Vulcan"]Vulcan[/url] would say.[/i]


[i]So you better believe I am confused too...[/i]

Edited September 24, 2008 by Mr.CatholicCat

[phatcatholic]

The ways in which the names of the Fathers are given and the fact that no sources are provided speaks to me a certain lack of familiarity with things Catholic that causes me to believe that this list most likely came from a Protestant or anti-Catholic website. As a general rule, I don't trust any quotations that a person gives me until I can look up the quote myself and read it in context. The only source twisted by the ignorant as frequently as Scripture is the corpus of the early Church Fathers.

[StColette]

lol I'll respond here as well as Q & A

[b]Clement of Alexandrea- "The Word, Jesus Christ was alone born without sin."[/b]

Can not find this quote in any source. I did find: Clement of Alexandria (190 AD) "The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning, for he was in God, and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone. is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1).


[b]Augustine of Hippo- "He, Christ alone, being made a man but remaining God, never had any sin, nor did he take on flesh of sin, though he took flesh of the sin of his mother."[/b]

St. Augustine’s idea of original sin was very complex, which is a good explanation for why he speaks of Mary this way.

[b]St. Thomas Aquinas- "What honor should we believe in attributing to Mary that honor may be had for her conception, which was anterior to her birth? Because without this conception neither her birth should be honored. Then would you say if others, according to your own reasoning, were to maintain that it is necessary to hold feasts in honor of her parents, this is logical. Then it would be necessary to honer her grandparents, and her great-grandparents; and there would be no end at all. There would be feasts without number on the earth and it would be converted into a paradise."[/b]

This seems like a quote taken from the Summa Theologica written by St. Thomas Aquinas. When taken out of context it can be quite difficult to understand his response. I recommend reading this section [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4027.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4027.htm[/url] of the Summa.

[b]
Peter Lombard- "But this is asked, on what account and whence is it that Mary was conceived without original sin? We say this was impossible."[/b]

Can’t find any source for this one to place it into context.


[b]Melchior Cannas- "The dogma that holds the blessed Virgin was free from the original sin was nowhere delivered in Holy Scripture!"[/b]

Apparently Melchior Cannas is a professor of Canon Law. I’ve never heard of him and can only find one source where he is quoted as saying this and it does not give it in context.

[b]St. Antoninus- "If the Scriptures are duly considered, and the sayings of the doctors ancient and modern who have been devoted to the glorious Virgin- it is plain from their word she was conceived in sin."[/b]

Again, I can’t find a source for this person nor the quote in context or at all.


[b]Leo I- "The Lord Jesus Christ alone among the sons of men was born without sin." (sermon 24 in Nativ. Dom.). [/b]

Pope Leo I wrote, “Alone therefore among the sons of men the Lord Jesus was born innocent, because alone conceived without pollution of carnal concupiscence.”
Lol Since when is Mary a son of man? Completely twisting the words of Leo I.

[b]Pope Gallatus- "It belongs to the immaculate Lamb to have no sin.[/b]

Can’t find a source for this at all either.

[b]Gregory I- "Christ alone was truly born holy."[/b]

Only source I can find for this one is very Anti-Catholic and does not give context to the quote.

[b]Innocent III- "Eve was produced without sin, but she brought forth in sin. Mary was brought forth in sin, but she brought forth without sin."[/b]

Can’t find the context or source for this quote either.

[b]What am I to make of this? Are there any quotes by Church fathers that speak of her Immaculate Conception?[/b]

Early Church Fathers disagreed on a number of things. We must understand that not all Church teachings were clearly given to us from the very beginning. Heck, the Divinity of Christ caused large problems between many Early Church Fathers. Original Sin is another topic which went back and forth between the Early Church Fathers when they were seeking understanding. We weren’t given all our dogmas and doctrines on a silver platter. Many of them took many many centuries to develop. The Church isn’t willy nilly about what she passes as dogma or doctrine, but is very calculated and careful.

As for Church Fathers for the Immaculate Conception, sorry if any of these are repeated:

Justin Martyr

[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, "Be it done unto me according to your word" (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus

Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, "Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word." Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

Origen

This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

Hippolytus

He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).

Ephraim the Syrian

You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]).

Ambrose of Milan

Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).

Gregory Nazianzen

He was conceived by the virgin, who had been first purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor (Sermon 38 [d. A.D. 390]).

Augustine

We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honor to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

Theodotus of Ancrya

A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns (Homily 6:11[ante A.D. 446]).

Proclus of Constantinople

As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain (Homily 1[ante A.D. 446]).

Jacob of Sarug

[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary[ante A.D. 521].

Romanos the Melodist

Then the tribes of Israel heard that Anna had conceived the immaculate one. So everyone took part in the rejoicing. Joachim gave a banquet, and great was the merriment in the garden. He invited the priests and Levites to prayer; then he called Mary into the center of the crowd, that she might be magnified (On the Birth of Mary 1 [d. ca A.D. 560]).

The Ascension of Isaiah

"[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’" (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).

The Odes of Solomon

"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . " (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]).

Justin Martyr

"[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus

"Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith" (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

"The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree [i.e., the cross]. Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away with—the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten" (ibid., 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

"And again, lest I depart from my argumentation on the name of Adam: Why is Christ called Adam by the apostle [Paul], if as man he was not of that earthly origin? But even reason defends this conclusion, that God recovered his image and likeness by a procedure similar to that in which he had been robbed of it by the devil. It was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise through a virgin the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex was by the same sex reestablished in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight" (The Flesh of Christ 17:4 [A.D. 210].

Pseudo-Melito

"If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: ‘Be it done according to your will’" (The Passing of the Virgin 16:2–17 [A.D. 300]).

Ephraim the Syrian

"You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?" (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).

Ambrose of Milan

"Mary’s life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and the form of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life . . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to hold fast to" (The Virgins 2:2:6 [A.D. 377]).

"The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater [to teach by example] than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave in speech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, to injure no one, to have goodwill towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue. When did she pain her parents even by a look? When did she disagree with her neighbors? When did she despise the lowly? When did she avoid the needy?" (ibid., 2:2:7).

"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin" (Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387]).

Augustine

"Our Lord . . . was not averse to males, for he took the form of a male, nor to females, for of a female he was born. Besides, there is a great mystery here: that just as death comes to us through a woman, life is born to us through a woman; that the devil, defeated, would be tormented by each nature, feminine and masculine, as he had taken delight in the defection of both" (Christian Combat 22:24 [A.D. 396]).

"That one woman is both mother and virgin, not in spirit only but even in body. In spirit she is mother, not of our head, who is our Savior himself—of whom all, even she herself, are rightly called children of the bridegroom—but plainly she is the mother of us who are his members, because by love she has cooperated so that the faithful, who are the members of that head, might be born in the Church. In body, indeed, she is the Mother of that very head" (Holy Virginity 6:6 [A.D. 401]).

...

"Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?—so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?" (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

Timothy of Jerusalem

"Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption" (Homily on Simeon and Anna [A.D. 400]).

John the Theologian

"[T]he Lord said to his Mother, ‘Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens’" (The Falling Asleep of Mary [A.D. 400]).

"And from that time forth all knew that the spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise" (ibid.).

Gregory of Tours

"The course of this life having been completed by blessed Mary, when now she would be called from the world, all the apostles came together from their various regions to her house. And when they had heard that she was about to be taken from the world, they kept watch together with her. And behold, the Lord Jesus came with his angels, and, taking her soul, he gave it over to the angel Michael and withdrew. At daybreak, however, the apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb, and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; the holy body having been received, he commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise, where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary’s body] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones and is in the enjoyment of the good of an eternity that will never end" (Eight Books of Miracles 1:4 [A.D. 584]).

"But Mary, the glorious Mother of Christ, who is believed to be a virgin both before and after she bore him, has, as we said above, been translated into paradise, amid the singing of the angelic choirs, whither the Lord preceded her" (ibid., 1:8).
Also for more understanding about the Immaculate Conception:
Proof Of Mary's Immaculate Conception & Sinlessness in Luke 1:28

Luke 1:28 "Caire, kecaritomene"

By examining the meaning of the words which the angel Gabriel spoke to the Virgin Mary it is easy to see that she was immaculately conceived.

For Catholics it is no challenge in understanding that Mary was conceived without sin by simply reading the English version of the Bible verse Luke 1:28. Protestants, on the other hand, do not see beyond the literal meaning of the words "full of grace" or in certain Protestant Bibles "full of grace" is translated as " favored by God". While Catholics still have complete understanding of "favored by God" because the Church Fathers and Popes referred back to the Greek manuscript when declaring that Mary was conceived with out sin. Protestants do not carry on the same usage of the Greek manuscripts as Catholics do. They accept only the English form which merely states " full of grace" or "favored by God". So in order to clarify the true meaning behind the word kecaritomene which stands for "full of grace" in the English version of the Bible we must examine carefully the Greek.

The Angel Gabriel greets Mary as "Caire, kecharitomene!"

Caire means both "rejoice" and "hail"

Kecaritomene is used as a direct address, Gabriel is using the word kecaritomene as a replacement for Mary's name.

The root word of kecharitomene is charitoo which by definition means " to fill or endow with grace " After knowing the meaning of the root word it is clear that both the Catholic and Protestant Bibles use some form of the word "grace" or "favor".

The prefix to the word charitoo is [ke] which is a past participle which makes it clear that Mary's state of grace was preformed before Gabriel's proclamation.
The word kecharitomene not only should mean "full of grace" but rather the word used in the passive participle form means "made full of grace". The term used in the perfect participle as it is used in the Greek manuscript means a perfect and lasting sign of grace.

So let's check out the grammar of it. John Pacheco says the following:
"kecharitomene".. is a perfect passive participle. It means one endowed with favour or grace in a "permanent or perfect" fashion. According to Greek grammatical lexicons, the perfect stem of a Greek verb means the 'perpetuation of a permanent result or completed action'.


Thus since the words base meaning is a perfect and lasting sign of grace this means Mary would had to have been immaculately conceived. The word's meaning which renders " made full of grace " implies that even at Mary's conception she was "made full of grace." Since we all believe that life begins at conception there is no way of stating the use of this word in any other form. Mary "made" = "conceived" full of grace.

Kecaritomene- Noun and Verb

The word kecaritomene can be both used in the form of a verb or in the form of a noun. When the angel Gabriel greeted Mary, he was using kecaritomene in the form of a noun or pronoun, he was replacing her name, Mary, with this word. By calling Mary by this address the name is a direct reflection on the characteristic quality of Mary. Above all the angel Gabriel calls Mary, kecaritomene even before using her real name. Kecaritomene is therefore the name in which God sees Mary which is " full of grace ".

The word kecaritomene is used rarely in the Bible, in fact, I can only find one other time in which it is found and that is in the Letter to the Ephesians. The use of kecaritomene in the Letter to the Ephesians is used in the form of a verb, which means to "bestow grace".

The other time that kecharitomene is used, is in its root word form of "caritow" or "charitoo". However, the meaning is significantly different because the indicator [echaritosen] form is used.

Ephesians 1:6
eiv epainon dochv thv xaritov autou hv exaritwsen hmav en tw hgaphmenw,

Eph:1:6:

"To the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved"

1. We are - caritow charitoo khar-ee-to’-o - "given favor"

Used as a verb in Ephesians 1:6 meaning:

1. to make graceful
charming, lovely, agreeable
2. to peruse with grace, compass with favour to honour with blessings

The use of the word here is in no way the same use as in Luke 1:28. He "bestowed grace" or He "graced" shows a momentary action and doesn't signify a permanent state of grace which is evident in Luke 1:28. It also does not hold the same meaning since the use of the it in Luke is defined as being "made full of grace".

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=19366&hl=caire"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...66&hl=caire[/url]

There is a lot more about this topic on the thread above.

God Bless,
Jennie

[Selah]

Bless you, St. Collete! But, can you help me with something else?

it appears that two Popes seemed to disagree on this doctrine:

[quote]Gregory the Great says -

"For he (Christ) alone was truly born holy." - P. 598, tom. i. Bened. Ed. Paris, 1705.

Innocent III says -

"Eve was produced without sin, but she brought forth in sin; Mary was produced in sin, but she brought forth without sin." - Sermo. II. De festo Assum Maria. Colon. 1552.

The Fathers of the Christian Church, and many of the most eminent[/quote]

The guy I am debating said:

[quote]Now what's interesting is we have two, count 'em, two Pope's who have been quoted saying Jesus, alone, was born sinless. Now I could be wrong on this, but wouldn't that mean that these popes, now showing contradictory statements on a dogmatic doctrine are divisive in their thinking and have now shown division amongst the other Popes? That would mean, based upon those quotes, that the Popes aren't infallible.[/quote]

Was there truly a division? or is this simply a matter of taking quotes out of context? If so, what is the appropriate context?

[Selah]

Oh, and I have one more question, in addition to the one above:

[quote]"Kecaritomene is used as a direct address. The angel Gabriel is using this word as a replacement for Mary's name.[/quote]

How can we know this? What does the verse say in Greek, as well as the literal translation?

Thank you!

[Mr.Cat]

But which “two Popes” made this statement that only Christ was born/conceived without sin? Until further sources or evidence is submitted I am suggesting that this supposed contradiction between the Popes on matters of infallibility does not exist.[quote][b]Papal infallibility[/b] - Wednesday, September 24, 2008 AD
According to the teaching of the First Vatican Council and Catholic tradition, the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are as follows:
[b]1[/b]. "the Roman Pontiff"
[b]2[/b]. "speaks ex cathedra" ("that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority….")
[b]3[/b]. "he [definitively] defines"
[b]4[/b]. "that a doctrine concerning faith or morals"
[b]5[/b]. "must be held by the whole Church"
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Conditions_for_papal_infallibility"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infalli...l_infallibility[/url][/quote] [quote][b]Papal infallibility[/b] - Wednesday, September 24, 2008 AD
Many non-Catholics, and even some Catholics, wrongly believe that the doctrine teaches that the Pope is infallible in everything he says, when, in reality, the invocation of papal infallibility is extremely rare.

Catholic theologians agree that both Pope Pius IX's 1854 definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and Pope Pius XII's 1950 definition of the dogma of the Assumption of Mary are instances of papal infallibility, a fact which has been confirmed by the Church's magisterium. However, theologians disagree about what other documents qualify.

Regarding historical papal documents, Catholic theologian and church historian Klaus Schatz made a thorough study, published in 1985, that identified the following list of ex cathedra documents (see Creative Fidelity: Weighing and Interpreting Documents of the Magisterium, by Francis A. Sullivan, chapter 6):
[b]1[/b]. "Tome to Flavian", Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon;
[b]2[/b]. Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople;
[b]3[/b]. Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just prior to final judgment;
[b]4[/b]. Cum occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical;
[b]5[/b]. Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical;
[b]6[/b]. Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the immaculate conception; and
[b]7[/b]. Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the assumption of Mary.
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Instances_of_papal_infallibility"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infalli...l_infallibility[/url][/quote] [quote][b]First Vatican Council [/b](Monday, July 18, 1870)
9. Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.

So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V1.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V1.HTM[/url][/quote][quote][b]The Second Vatican Council - Lumen-gentium[/b] (Saturday, November 21, 1964)
This Sacred Council, following closely in the footsteps of the First Vatican Council, with that Council teaches and declares that Jesus Christ, the eternal Shepherd, established His holy Church, having sent forth the apostles as He Himself had been sent by the Father; and He willed that their successors, namely the bishops, should be shepherds in His Church even to the consummation of the world. And in order that the episcopate itself might be one and undivided, He placed Blessed Peter over the other apostles, and instituted in him a permanent and visible source and foundation of unity of faith and communion. And all this teaching about the institution, the perpetuity, the meaning and reason for the sacred primacy of the Roman Pontiff and of his infallible magisterium, this Sacred Council again proposes to be firmly believed by all the faithful. Continuing in that same undertaking, this Council is resolved to declare and proclaim before all men the doctrine concerning bishops, the successors of the apostles, who together with the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ, the visible Head of the whole Church, govern the house of the living God.
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_council...gentium_en.html[/url][/quote][quote][b]The Second Vatican Council - Lumen-gentium[/b] (Saturday, November 21, 1964)
And this infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed His Church to be endowed in defining doctrine of faith and morals, extends as far as the deposit of Revelation extends, which must be religiously guarded and faithfully expounded. And this is the infallibility which the Roman Pontiff, the head of the college of bishops, enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith, by a definitive act he proclaims a doctrine of faith or morals. And therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly styled irreformable, since they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, promised to him in blessed Peter, and therefore they need no approval of others, nor do they allow an appeal to any other judgment. For then the Roman Pontiff is not pronouncing judgment as a private person, but as the supreme teacher of the universal Church, in whom the charism of infallibility of the Church itself is individually present, he is expounding or defending a doctrine of Catholic faith. The infallibility promised to the Church resides also in the body of Bishops, when that body exercises the supreme magisterium with the successor of Peter. To these definitions the assent of the Church can never be wanting, on account of the activity of that same Holy Spirit, by which the whole flock of Christ is preserved and progresses in unity of faith.
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_council...gentium_en.html[/url][/quote] StColette, great post... Makes me feel guilty for ranting... Good job...

Edited September 25, 2008 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Majella]

The Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the faith. It is not up to us to disagree with it.
Our Lord had to arrive in a "clean " vessel, (our Lady without the stain of sin).
As a once-protestant , it has taken me a long time to honor and love our Lady, just try to read some good books on the issue and you will find the truth.
God bless.

[StColette]

[quote name='Selah' post='1663094' date='Sep 24 2008, 08:27 PM']Oh, and I have one more question, in addition to the one above:



How can we know this? What does the verse say in Greek, as well as the literal translation?

Thank you![/quote]

Not sure if you missed this part of the post
[quote]The prefix to the word charitoo is [ke] which is a past participle which makes it clear that Mary's state of grace was preformed before Gabriel's proclamation.
The word kecharitomene not only should mean "full of grace" but rather the word used in the passive participle form means "made full of grace". The term used in the perfect participle as it is used in the Greek manuscript means a perfect and lasting sign of grace.

So let's check out the grammar of it. John Pacheco says the following:
"kecharitomene".. is a perfect passive participle. It means one endowed with favour or grace in a "permanent or perfect" fashion. According to Greek grammatical lexicons, the perfect stem of a Greek verb means the 'perpetuation of a permanent result or completed action'.[/quote]

Interlinear

Luke 1:28

And the angel came in unto
her, and said, Hail, [b][thou that
art] highly favoured[/b], the Lord
[is] with thee: blessed [art]
thou among women.

"Highly favoured" is used in the angel's greeting as a noun, referring to Mary, thus it makes sense that he is replacing her name (Mary) with this noun.

[url="http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/luk1.pdf"]http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterli.../NTpdf/luk1.pdf[/url] Gives you a rendering of the Greek version of the verse. Luke 1:28. It also is an interlinear so that you can more easily distinguish the meaning of the words.

[StColette]

[quote name='Selah' post='1663069' date='Sep 24 2008, 07:18 PM']Bless you, St. Collete! But, can you help me with something else?
Was there truly a division? or is this simply a matter of taking quotes out of context? If so, what is the appropriate context?[/quote]

I would have to see the writings of these two quotes in context to fully understand what was being said by these Popes. My understanding of Pope Innocent III's quote would bring in the theology of Augustine. In much of Augustine's writing he referred to conceptions that were brought about through regular material relations as being the product of sin. Meaning the understanding of transfer of sin was through the marital act onto the child that was conceived. Thus would explain Pope Innocent's idea toward Mary, because her conception was brought about through regular marital union, but at the very moment of her conception God intervened. As for the quote of Pope Gregory, I'm not altogether sure of the context of his quote. Gregory could have been battling against a Christological heresy. We must remember that the Bible also says that none born of woman is greater than John the Baptist, if I remember this verse correctly. We know by practically knowledge that Christ was and is far greater than John the Baptist and he was born of a woman. Context is key. Sad thing is we don't have full manuscripts at our daily disposal for looking up such context. I mean the Vatican Library might, but the internet doesn't provide such context usually unless it is a well known document like the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas.

[StColette]

I would recomment [url="http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/"]http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/[/url] to anyone, especially those struggling or debating Marian topics. The creator and maintainer of this site is Dr. Mark Miravalle a leading Marian Theologian for the world. I had him as a Professor for three different classes, and he was always off giving seminars in Rome on Marian topics. He knows his stuff. Any books by him are very helpful as well.