Atheism

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Phazzan' post='1665114' date='Sep 27 2008, 02:42 PM']Not the kind of "faith" you're thinking of..[/quote]

Then, to clarify, what type of "faith" are we speaking about?

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1665162' date='Sep 27 2008, 04:12 PM']The difference is that I have never experienced God in any way. You gave the example of love, but I have experienced love so I know it exists.[/quote]

But it is intangible, and oftentimes God is manifested in love, some would say the embodiment of love, how would you respond to that?

[quote]When I was much younger I did try praying once or twice just as a reaction to one of those moments. Since nothing happened I concluded no one was listening, gave it up and haven't tried again. I guess you'd first have to believe in God before praying would feel more significant than talking to your cactus does. The thing I don't understand is what makes people believe. That's partly why I hang around in a catholic forum.[/quote]

That is precisely why I started this thread, because I am curious as to what makes people not believe. I guess my question though, would be what did you expect to happen when you prayed?

[quote]Although there's always the possibility that God exists, in the practical sense I don't believe he does. Just like with the cake analogy if I see a empty fridge and someone asks is there any cake there, I'll say no. Even though in the philosophical sense I can't prove either way and would remain open about it.[/quote]

Understood.

[quote]Since my objections to God's existence in this thread have been on empirical grounds, I guess you'd have to say science has some part with my disbelief. But when it comes to things like evolution and big bang, I don't find them all that relevant to whether there's God or not. If God exists, he would simply fit with all the scientific evidence. And if God created the universe and us in it, it would be kind of trivial to know how he did it.

And to clarify, I have no disagreements with the scientific consensus.[/quote]

But Anthony Flew, (I do mean to say him this time) believed that there was evidence of the existence of God that could be determined by science, if I am not mistaken, a big one was DNA and Genome Project. How would you respond to that?

Again, thank you and also thank you Phazzan, this is more helpful than you might realize.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1665183' date='Sep 27 2008, 08:35 PM']But it is intangible, and oftentimes God is manifested in love, some would say the embodiment of love, how would you respond to that?[/quote]

I don't really know how to respond to that. As I understand it, love is love, not God.

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1665183' date='Sep 27 2008, 08:35 PM']That is precisely why I started this thread, because I am curious as to what makes people not believe. I guess my question though, would be what did you expect to happen when you prayed?[/quote]

Well I don't really remember since it was such a long time ago. I guess I was just testing if something would happen and probably didn't think anything would.

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1665183' date='Sep 27 2008, 08:35 PM']But Anthony Flew, (I do mean to say him this time) believed that there was evidence of the existence of God that could be determined by science, if I am not mistaken, a big one was DNA and Genome Project. How would you respond to that?[/quote]

I'm not a scientist, but a fingerprint type of thing sounds plausible. I have no idea what that would look like, though. But as far as I know, no such thing has been found. And I'm not sure it matters since the existence of God doesn't necessitate the fingerprint.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1660601' date='Sep 21 2008, 02:45 PM']As most of you know, I have started an apologetics class here in the parish, and, down the line, because of it is growing in popularity, plan to deal with atheism. I have read a lot of book on atheism and by prominent atheists, Sam Harris "Letter to a Christian Nation," Richard Dawkins "God Delusion" etc. but nothing compares to speaking to one directly. I have not been around long enough to know if we have any on the board, but would welcome conversation and dialogue to any degree by any atheists, former or current.

thanks[/quote]

ever since i saw an episode of "Wife Swap" that featured an atheist family switching mom's with a Christian family for two weeks, and with each one completely clueless with the other's mentality, i learned that often the only way to get through to them is to talk with someone who was formerly like them. i'm an example of an atheist/agnostic who found God and can relate to both sides. those who have grown up always knowing God find it very difficult to understand how one could think otherwise, and vice versa.

you could bring in a speaker to give their testimony or something. there's sites like [url="http://www.doesgodexist.org"]www.doesgodexist.org [/url] that intrigued me, as well as great testimonies like that of Fr. Corapi's.

[Ziggamafu]

Atheism is not a belief; it is the lack of a belief. Christians lack the belief in every god besides the Holy Trinity; atheists merely take that lack of belief one step further. To say that atheism is faith-based is to say that everyone's a-leprechaunism is faith-based. People don't actively believe leprechauns don't exist; they merely lack the belief.

Also: since atheism is strictly a negative thing, it cannot directly be associated with a specific set of other behaviors / beliefs. It is not like saying one is "Anglican", which thereby implies a certain set of specific doctrines. We may notice a tendency of similarities amongst atheists, but it would be inappropriate to treat these similarities as atheistic "dogmas".

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1660986' date='Sep 22 2008, 10:38 AM']Faith is, after all, hoping on things unseen. There is also a firm conviction that the universe is not a bundle of random energy, that there is a pattern and plan that could not be a result of mere chaos. If there is a plan, than a Planner is out there somewhere. Most people agree to this. It just makes more sense that life is here for a reason and not an accident. Its in our very genes to believe in something greater than ourselves and that notion came from somewhere. If not from God, then where?
Where it breaks down for atheists is this notion of a "personal " God. A God initiating the "big bang" is far easier to believe in than someone loving an individual me. Most people carry around way too much baggage to feel personally lovable. Atheists don't believe in God but at the same time are very angry at Him for not existing.
They also get in trouble with the modern notion of "feelings". Tele-evangelists running around smiling and screaming saying "JEsus loves you" act as if christianity is merely a permanent emotional high where everybody is happy. This doesn't square with the range of normal everyday life of ups and downs to lives of quiet desperation lead by the majority of the planet. Because of their prominence, atheists see most christians in the glare of Tv-evangels hypocrisy and judge all christians the same. It has been pounded into them that one cannot be rational or scientific and christian at the same time, as if truth can be divided. Most actual followers of Christ are not out there publicly displaying themselves so society lacks a comparison to the pharisetical behaviors seen in the media.[/quote]
I think I detect traces of "Surprised by Joy" by C.S. Lewis: )

That is, incidentally, the only Lewis book I ever cared for.

I don't have a problem with a personal God; I just don't see the slightest bit of evidence for one.

I wouldn’t say I'm angry at God for not existing, although I understand what C.S. Lewis meant when he said it, I just wish it were so. Or that I was born with more of a predisposition for religious faith. Even if it isn’t real it's be nice to believe it was.

Why did you leave atheism?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1665183' date='Sep 27 2008, 03:35 PM']But it is intangible, and oftentimes God is manifested in love, some would say the embodiment of love, how would you respond to that?[/quote]


I heard this so much as a child. You are not equating God with an emotion are you? But then what exactly does, "God is love" mean? Is "love" supposed to be some platonic metaphysical thing?

[Phazzan]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1665181' date='Sep 27 2008, 04:27 PM']Then, to clarify, what type of "faith" are we speaking about?[/quote]

The "faith" that can't be tested, measured, verified in any way and is not universally accepted as fact.

Edited September 28, 2008 by Phazzan

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Phazzan' post='1665554' date='Sep 28 2008, 01:38 AM']The "faith" that can't be tested, measured, verified in any way and is not universally accepted as fact.[/quote]

But your response seemed to infer that there was a different type of faith than the one a theist holds. So, then, based on this, would you say an atheist does have "faith?" If so, what type and in what?

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1665527' date='Sep 28 2008, 01:10 AM']I heard this so much as a child. You are not equating God with an emotion are you? But then what exactly does, "God is love" mean? Is "love" supposed to be some platonic metaphysical thing?[/quote]

No, I believe Pope Benedict explains it best, and so will defer you to his explanation in his encyclical, "Deus Caritas Est:"

[i]1. “God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 Jn 4:16). These words from the First Letter of John express with remarkable clarity the heart of the Christian faith: the Christian image of God and the resulting image of mankind and its destiny. In the same verse, Saint John also offers a kind of summary of the Christian life: “We have come to know and to believe in the love God has for us”.

We have come to believe in God's love: in these words the Christian can express the fundamental decision of his life. Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction. Saint John's Gospel describes that event in these words: “God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should ... have eternal life” (3:16). In acknowledging the centrality of love, Christian faith has retained the core of Israel's faith, while at the same time giving it new depth and breadth. The pious Jew prayed daily the words of the Book of Deuteronomy which expressed the heart of his existence: “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your might” (6:4-5). Jesus united into a single precept this commandment of love for God and the commandment of love for neighbour found in the Book of Leviticus: “You shall love your neighbour as yourself” (19:18; cf. Mk 12:29-31). Since God has first loved us (cf. 1 Jn 4:10), love is now no longer a mere “command”; it is the response to the gift of love with which God draws near to us.[/i]

It is seen as more than an emotion but an event, and, as strange as this may sound, the source of love is the one we love.

[Phazzan]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1665626' date='Sep 28 2008, 07:49 AM']But your response seemed to infer that there was a different type of faith than the one a theist holds. So, then, based on this, would you say an atheist does have "faith?" If so, what type and in what?[/quote]

I would say an atheist has faith, but faith in things that can be tested, measured and/or verified in some scientific and controlled way and are universally accepted as fact.. I would say a theist also has faith in these things. It seems what you're implying is the faith required to believe in cow dung is the same as the faith required to believe in god?

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1665227' date='Sep 27 2008, 07:23 PM']ever since i saw an episode of "Wife Swap" that featured an atheist family switching mom's with a Christian family for two weeks, and with each one completely clueless with the other's mentality, i learned that often the only way to get through to them is to talk with someone who was formerly like them. i'm an example of an atheist/agnostic who found God and can relate to both sides. those who have grown up always knowing God find it very difficult to understand how one could think otherwise, and vice versa.

you could bring in a speaker to give their testimony or something. there's sites like [url="http://www.doesgodexist.org"]www.doesgodexist.org [/url] that intrigued me, as well as great testimonies like that of Fr. Corapi's.[/quote]

I understand where you are coming from, but do not entirely agree. I have learned a lot from this thread and, in the beginning, I was speaking to former atheists and in my class, I have someone who identifies herself as an atheist but is still searching. You are right in that I don't know exactly what they are going through, but even I, for a time, questioned my faith and desired to be an atheist, except that I kept praying. Now, my question is this, why did I go a separate way than others? I know there is "mystery" there, but, even you, why are you now a Christian and no longer an atheist?

I am trying to understand, as best I can, what happens and feel as though talking to both, that is the "formers" and the "currents" is helping me to understand this better, because, truth be told, I have focused so much on the "believers" and their issues that I never once dealt with non-believers. It was only after I met with that woman in my class, that I realized they too need a fair hearing and really have never gotten one.

Also, I don't know how to find a former atheist in my area, I am almost positive they are not in the phone book

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Phazzan' post='1665631' date='Sep 28 2008, 10:11 AM']I would say an atheist has faith, but faith in things that can be tested, measured and/or verified in some scientific and controlled way and are universally accepted as fact.. I would say a theist also has faith in these things. It seems what you're implying is the faith required to believe in cow dung is the same as the faith required to believe in god?[/quote]

No, I really would not say that, I just wanted a clarification of the type of faith you were speaking of, I kind of figured it was this type of faith, but did not want to assume, since we all know what happens when we assume

So, then you recognize that there is a different type of faith, what Christians would call a "supernatural faith?"

[Phazzan]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1665633' date='Sep 28 2008, 08:21 AM']No, I really would not say that, I just wanted a clarification of the type of faith you were speaking of, I kind of figured it was this type of faith, but did not want to assume, since we all know what happens when we assume

So, then you recognize that there is a different type of faith, what Christians would call a "supernatural faith?"[/quote]

Perhaps, but I feel it would be more appropriate to refer to this "supernatural faith" as just "faith" without making distinctions between the faith required to believe in cow dung and the faith required to believe in god.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Phazzan' post='1665635' date='Sep 28 2008, 10:30 AM']Perhaps, but I feel it would be more appropriate to refer to this "supernatural faith" as just "faith" without making distinctions between the faith required to believe in cow dung and the faith required to believe in god.[/quote]

But, I think the distinction is important because that difference in faith why we believe in God and not in cow dung. The "supernatural" part, that is, the part that distinguishes it from "beyond natural" to just natural is how faith, in that sense, is possible.

Besides, normally "faith" is associated in a religious context, in fact, to directly quote webster's

[url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith"]http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith[/url]

Main Entry:
1faith Listen to the pronunciation of 1faith
Pronunciation:
\ˈfāth\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural faiths Listen to the pronunciation of faiths \ˈfāths, sometimes ˈfāthz\
Etymology:
Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust — more at bide
Date:
13th century

1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction ; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

So, I would think the distinction is important and would further wonder if we are even speaking about faith or just simple trust in everyday objects.