Atheism

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1660955' date='Sep 22 2008, 10:18 AM']Respectfuly... no. But if you got something out of it, cool beans.[/quote]

Well, OK then, enlighten me. I am trying to understand, not put words in your mouth, you can say it much better than I can, because you experienced it.

And, cmom, thank you, that helps a lot.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1660703' date='Sep 22 2008, 02:22 AM']My atheism was a direct result of the problem of pain and evil. How can any God permit the horrors of pain and suffering of his supposed children.[/quote]

I recommend two books:
"Where is God in a messed-up world?" by Roger Carswell
and Job.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote]It seems for Mr. CatholicCat that yours was an intellectual conversion...[/quote]I was not referring to how my conversion took place or those things that lead me to the conclusion that God existed, because it wouldn’t be relevant to this discussion nor could it easily be reproduced.[quote]...in those "mental gymnastics," as it were, realized there were limits to the human mind and so resigned yourself to faith in order to explain those things you were unable to understand.[/quote]Again, not about me, but I would hardly describe what I was attempting to explain as “mental gymnastics” or being “resigned to/in faith”.[quote]Well, OK then, enlighten me. I am trying to understand, not put words in your mouth, you can say it much better than I can, because you experienced it.[/quote]To understand the mindset of an atheist or atheism in general is no small task. Looking to what I attempted to explain already, in failure to communicate or in communication, I am unsure what to write that would add more clarity to the matter.

Maybe watching Archbishop Fulton Sheen’s program Life is Worth Living where he mentions the Summa Theologica would help. Since the connection between it and this topic I learned from there. I had already understood it but not in such a detail.

Edited September 22, 2008 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1660601' date='Sep 21 2008, 08:45 PM']As most of you know, I have started an apologetics class here in the parish, and, down the line, because of it is growing in popularity, plan to deal with atheism. I have read a lot of book on atheism and by prominent atheists, Sam Harris "Letter to a Christian Nation," Richard Dawkins "God Delusion" etc. but nothing compares to speaking to one directly. I have not been around long enough to know if we have any on the board, but would welcome conversation and dialogue to any degree by any atheists, former or current.[/quote]

I'm not sure what good speaking to an atheist would be for you. If your goal is simply apologetics then wouldn't going through the arguments and counterarguments be more productive?

Anyway, a conversation with an atheist would start with him/her asking for evidence. Then you'd be unable to provide it. And that would be the end of it.

It all falls on faith doesn't it?


[quote name='Didacus' post='1661018' date='Sep 22 2008, 04:43 PM']It is a stance of faith to believe that God does not exist.[/quote]

I agree with that. However, most atheists don't believe that God does not exist. If the original poster is going to be talking about atheism in the class, then he/she should at least be aware of what atheists believe or don't believe. It does no good for either party to spread misconceptions about it.


[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1660986' date='Sep 22 2008, 03:38 PM']Where it breaks down for atheists is this notion of a "personal " God. A God initiating the "big bang" is far easier to believe in than someone loving an individual me. Most people carry around way too much baggage to feel personally lovable. Atheists don't believe in God but at the same time are very angry at Him for not existing.[/quote]

There might be some truth in that. At least in the form of wishful thinking.

Speaking for myself, from what I know I'll live my life without any greater purpose in a indifferent world and when I die I'll be nothing more than maggot food. I don't want this. I sometimes stay awake at nights thinking and crying over it. I really wish it wasn't so. And yet it seems like madness to deny it.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1661200' date='Sep 22 2008, 06:19 PM']I'm not sure what good speaking to an atheist would be for you. If your goal is simply apologetics then wouldn't going through the arguments and counterarguments be more productive?

Anyway, a conversation with an atheist would start with him/her asking for evidence. Then you'd be unable to provide it. And that would be the end of it.

It all falls on faith doesn't it?




I agree with that. However, most atheists don't believe that God does not exist. If the original poster is going to be talking about atheism in the class, then he/she should at least be aware of what atheists believe or don't believe. It does no good for either party to spread misconceptions about it.




There might be some truth in that. At least in the form of wishful thinking.

Speaking for myself, from what I know I'll live my life without any greater purpose in a indifferent world and when I die I'll be nothing more than maggot food. I don't want this. I sometimes stay awake at nights thinking and crying over it. I really wish it wasn't so. And yet it seems like madness to deny it.[/quote]


I disagree. I think a lot can be benefited from talking with an atheist. I am not trying to explain my proofs for the existence of God but want to know how an atheist thinks, better understand what it is that led that person to disbelieving in God.

The reason I am asking to talk to atheists or former atheists is to make sure I don't spread misconceptions.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1661209' date='Sep 22 2008, 09:33 PM']I disagree. I think a lot can be benefited from talking with an atheist. I am not trying to explain my proofs for the existence of God but want to know how an atheist thinks, better understand what it is that led that person to disbelieving in God.

The reason I am asking to talk to atheists or former atheists is to make sure I don't spread misconceptions.[/quote]

Oh I see, that's quite commendable actually. I guess I was thinking of debates and such as that's pretty much all you see going on between atheists and theists. And those often degenerate fast.

Well I'm here if you need something, though I'm not known for great conversation skills.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1661200' date='Sep 22 2008, 05:19 PM']I agree with that. However, most atheists don't believe that God does not exist.[/quote]

What's an atheist then?

[Semalsia]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1661421' date='Sep 23 2008, 01:13 AM']
What's an atheist then?[/quote]

Someone who doesn't believe that God exists.

[Theologian in Training]

Were you always an atheist? If not, what led you to disbelieve in God?

[Mr.Cat]

[quote][quote name='Semalsia' post='1661200' date='Sep 22 2008, 05:19 PM']However, most atheists [u][b]don't[/b][/u] believe that God does [b][u]not[/u][/b] exist.[/quote][quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1661421' date='Sep 22 2008, 09:13 PM']What's an atheist then?[/quote][/quote]I think the previous user may of been asking if your use of the double negative was intentional? Since this statement might lead someone to think some atheists may believe in God. [i]Thus the confusion...[/i]

Edited September 23, 2008 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1661533' date='Sep 22 2008, 09:07 PM']I think the previous user may of been asking if your use of the double negative was intentional? Since this statement might lead someone to think some atheists may believe in God. [i]Thus the confusion...[/i][/quote]
I'm still confused...
If one doesn't believe that something does not exist...wouldn't that mean that that one believes something exists?
Perhaps it's been a longer day than it seems...

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1661509' date='Sep 23 2008, 01:54 AM']Were you always an atheist? If not, what led you to disbelieve in God?[/quote]

I have never actively believed in God. Maybe because religion wasn't talked about at home. I got these 'what if there is a god' moments when I was younger and tried praying couple of times. I guess I gave it up since nothing happened. I still occasionally wonder, but that's about it. When I look at the world or the people in it, I can't see God anywhere in there. In fact everything looks just like if there was no God (the chaos, injustice, suffering, etc).

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1661547' date='Sep 23 2008, 02:21 AM'][quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1661533' date='Sep 23 2008, 02:07 AM']
I think the previous user may of been asking if your use of the double negative was intentional? Since this statement might lead someone to think some atheists may believe in God. [i]Thus the confusion...[/i][/quote]
I'm still confused...
If one doesn't believe that something does not exist...wouldn't that mean that that one believes something exists?
Perhaps it's been a longer day than it seems...
[/quote]

Yes, the double negative was intentional. I meant that they do not necessarily hold the belief that there is no God. Point being that saying "atheists believe there is no God" is wrong as they might simply not know if God exists or not.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote][b]Atheism[/b] - Tuesday, September 23, 2008 AD
[u]Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods, or the rejection of theism[/u]. It is also defined more broadly as synonymous with any form of nontheism, including the simple absence of belief in deities.

Many self-described atheists are skeptical of all supernatural beings and cite a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of deities. Others argue for atheism on philosophical, social or historical grounds. Although many self-described atheists tend toward secular philosophies such as humanism and naturalism, there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere; and some religions, such as Jainism and Buddhism, do not require belief in a personal god.

The term atheism originated as a pejorative epithet applied to any person or belief in conflict with established religion. With the spread of freethought, scientific skepticism, and criticism of religion, the term began to gather a more specific meaning and has been increasingly used as a self-description by atheists.
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism[/url][/quote][quote][b]Agnosticism[/b] - Tuesday, September 23, 2008 AD
Agnosticism is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of God, gods, deities, or even ultimate reality — [u]is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently impossible to prove or disprove[/u].

Demographic research services normally list agnostics in the same category as atheists and non-religious people, using 'agnostic' in the sense of 'noncommittal'. However, this can be misleading given the existence of agnostic theists, who identify themselves as both agnostics in the original sense and followers of a particular religion.

Philosophers and thinkers who have written about agnosticism include Thomas Henry Huxley, Robert G. Ingersoll, and Bertrand Russell. Religious scholars who wrote about agnosticism are Peter Kreeft, Blaise Pascal and Joseph Ratzinger, later elected as Pope Benedict XVI.
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism[/url][/quote][quote][b]Deism[/b] - Tuesday, September 23, 2008 AD
[u]Deism is the theistic belief that a supreme God exists and created the physical universe, but shall not intervene in its normal operation[/u]. It is related to a religious philosophy and movement that claims to derive the existence and nature of God from reason. It takes no position on what God may do outside the universe. That is in contrast to fideism which is found in many forms of Christianity, Islamic and Judaic teachings, which hold that religion relies on revelation in sacred scriptures or the testimony of other people as well as reasoning.

Deists typically reject most supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God does not intervene with the affairs of human life and the natural laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most deists see as interpretations made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources. Deists believe that God's greatest gift to humanity is not religion, but the ability to reason.

Deism became prominent in the 17th and 18th centuries during the Age of Enlightenment, especially in the United Kingdom, France and the United States, mostly among those raised as Christians who found they could not believe in either a triune God, the divinity of Jesus, miracles, or the inerrancy of scriptures, but who did believe in one god. Initially it did not form any congregations, but in time deism led to the development of other religious groups, such as Unitarianism, which later developed into Unitarian Universalism. It continues to this day in the form of classical deism and modern deism.
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism[/url][/quote]To assume that agnostics and deists are “[i]atheists[/i]” I would personally consider an overly broad generalization and rash assumption. Likewise, it leaves no definition to the different kinds and intensities of atheism. There are likewise different forms, kinds, and intensities in agnosticism and deism. Personally I find it deceptive when polls report atheists, agnostics, deists, and simply non-religious people are grouped together the broad umbrella of atheism.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1661720' date='Sep 23 2008, 09:33 AM']To assume that agnostics and deists are “[i]atheists[/i]” I would personally consider an overly broad generalization and rash assumption. Likewise, it leaves no definition to the different kinds and intensities of atheism. There are likewise different forms, kinds, and intensities in agnosticism and deism. Personally I find it deceptive when polls report atheists, agnostics, deists, and simply non-religious people are grouped together the broad umbrella of atheism.[/quote]

The wikipedia article you quoted agrees with what I said about atheism. I don't know if that [i]should[/i] be the definition of atheism or not, but that's how it is in the common usage. And that's how people like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins (Theologian in Training mentioned them) use the word. Neither claim to be able to disprove God's existence and would admit that it's possible, they just think it's unlikely. Though I have not actually read any of their books, just seen interviews of them saying something like this.

I don't even like to use the word myself, because of these semantic troubles it gets you into. If you insist on using atheism to mean a positive belief that there is no God, then when you talk to an atheist you'll risk getting laughed at for not knowing what atheism is. I guess I'd suggest instead of assuming you know the person from a label, you'd actually start by asking what his/her views are. I'm not sure there has to be a separate word for every possible nuance imaginable.

[Theologian in Training]

OK then, for the sake of clarification, what is it you would say you believe?

Also, in Sam Harris' book "Letter to a Christian Nation," he admits that one person is right and one person is wrong and accepts the consequences if he is wrong. However, he uses this as a justification to prove that indeed he is right. So, he does not necessarily subscribe to the maybe there is God theory.