Liturgical Music

[Resurrexi]

I'm of the opinion that P&W music is too outdated. I think it's alienating young people, who don't listen to that sort of music. So, to attract young people to the Mass and to foster their active participation, we should really have heavy metal and hip-hop Masses. In fact, what I'm sure teenagers would like best is if we got some bands like Metallica and Slipnot and some hip-hop artists like Rhianna Kanye West to record settings for the Ordinary of the Mass, responsorial psalms, and hymns, and then the music could just be played on speakers at Mass. I mean, it P&W music is suitable for Mass, heavy metal and hip-hop are appropriate as well, right?

[CatherineM]

In my 46 years of attending Catholic churches, the time that the largest percentage of teens were voluntarily attending, and participating in the mass, was in the early 1970's. That's when we had an assistant pastor who was young, long haired, bearded, and they had drums and electric guitars for the music. He wore the wildest vestments too. The church was rocking and fun. I'm sure it weirded out the gray hairs, but we had more than one mass, so the morning mass was organ and traditional music for them. There are times I wish we could spice things up some. I know that most Phatmassers want only traditional music preferably in Latin. I'd rather see the pews full, and if that means having two masses on Sunday, then what's the harm in having two styles of music.

The fullest, most spirit filled mass in Edmonton is the one on Sunday nights at St. Joseph's College at the University of Alberta. I'm told that it is standing room only most of the time.

[eagle_eye222001]

One of the priests (Protestant minister convert!) that I highly respect as he is very knowledgeable with the church in general, has the opinion that campfire music is not appropriate.

I think the problem with young people is that parents do not teach the faith to their children and hand off the responsibility to the schools. The teens and young people I see at mass are the children of parents who care about their faith. Children see their apathetic religious parents go to mass purely as a chore and copy likewise.


I do think we need some better songs but I do not think we should make a campfire out of the mass or a concert.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1659524' date='Sep 19 2008, 05:46 PM']The fullest, most spirit filled mass in Edmonton is the one on Sunday nights at St. Joseph's College at the University of Alberta. I'm told that it is standing room only most of the time.[/quote]

And I bet lots of people would come to heavy metal and hip-hop Masses. So why don't we have some? It would only be pastoral, wouldn't it?

[MilesJesu]

If the only reason someone comes to Mass is for the music, they are missing the point of the Mass.

If the only reason someone comes to Mass is to hear the homily, they are missing the point of the Mass.

When working with people who ask why Mass is boring, I have always answered truthfully: "if you come to be entertained, you will be bored to tears. You will more than likely find better music, a better speaker, or a better "show" somewhere else. But if you come to worship God, then there is no where else to go."

"The day you learn to check yourself at the door, and come to worship, that is when things will change. When you can put yourself on the altar with Christ and unite yourself to Christ's sacrifice, that is the day when Mass will no longer be boring. THAT is the day, when the Mass will come alive and will be the most amazing experience."

I think the pews are empty for more than just the music or the homilies. The cause runs much deeper.

Peace,

MilesJesu

[Resurrexi]

I agree. But I think that reenchanting the liturgy would attract more to the Church... and not just fair-weather friends... true Catholics who love the Church and her traditions.

[MilesJesu]

Just to clarify, is P&W music = praise and worship music?

Re-enchanting the Mass is difficult in the proper sense. Given that we believe that Christ becomes truly present in the Mass, that in the Mass, He is represented and the work of our salvation is carried out, what can WE do to make it more enchanting?

If we select music that is popular, are we doing so because we enjoy it more or that others might enjoy it? If so, does it help us "check ourselves at the door" and truly "worship" God?

I don't know the answer. It seems to me however, that "active participation" is often misconstrued to mean people [i]doing something [/i] [b]during [/b]the Mass such as being a lector, usher, cantor etc. The "active participation" envisioned by Vaticcan II not only includes the things I just mentioned, but specifically - an active particpation in the worship of God. It should generate from the interior and be manifested in the exterior.

If it were up to me, I would prefer professional singers where I would not have to sing but could here people who were truly gifted by God. I would prefer special lighting and an awesome sound system. I would also prefer PowerPoint intertwined in the homily to better grasp the points being made and a nice summary of the main points at the end. I would also have professional readers for the scriptures. To me, these things would certainly spice up the presentation of the Mass and probably appeal to a wider audience.

However, my main point is that one, it isn't up to me. God establishes how He wants to be worshiped through His Church. Additionally, it isn't about me, and what I want. Since coming to this realization, Mass is still powerful when the music is not very good and I can hear myself sing. Mass is still amazing even when the homily is omitted!

The ideas you suggest may work, provided the intention is properly placed, and they are in accord with what the Church, founded by Christ, prescribes for communal worship. That does not prevent them being used at other Church functions - picnics, bible studies, gatherings, etc. I would just be hesitant in the Mass.

Peace,

MilesJesu

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1659524' date='Sep 19 2008, 07:46 PM']In my 46 years of attending Catholic churches, the time that the largest percentage of teens were voluntarily attending, and participating in the mass, was in the early 1970's. That's when we had an assistant pastor who was young, long haired, bearded, and they had drums and electric guitars for the music. He wore the wildest vestments too. The church was rocking and fun. I'm sure it weirded out the gray hairs, but we had more than one mass, so the morning mass was organ and traditional music for them. There are times I wish we could spice things up some. I know that most Phatmassers want only traditional music preferably in Latin. I'd rather see the pews full, and if that means having two masses on Sunday, then what's the harm in having two styles of music.

The fullest, most spirit filled mass in Edmonton is the one on Sunday nights at St. Joseph's College at the University of Alberta. I'm told that it is standing room only most of the time.[/quote]


to sacrifice true, high worship of God in order to obtain numbers is dishonest. It is lying to ourselves, lying to the people we're trying to rope in, and lying to God.

Lying to ourselves, because we know that that is not how Mass is intended to be, and that it is much more fruitful and a truer worship of the Most High when it is done in a solemn, RESPECTFUL way.

Lying to the people we're trying to rope in, because we are watering down the faith (lex orandi lex credendi). It is better to tell the truth and to lose people because of that than to lie or give in on some important point and therefore gain a couple more people in the pews.

Lying to God because he gave us the way we should pray, and Tradition has held that Way for 2,000 years. We're trying to worship this new way, this "bloodless" "progressive" way. Our sacrifice becomes like that of Cain. The sacrifice of the Mass remains the same, but our end and the way we experience it changes.

[mcts]

do you think God really cares HOW he's being worshiped, as long as the people are praising him?

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='mcts' post='1660056' date='Sep 20 2008, 11:50 AM']do you think God really cares HOW he's being worshiped, as long as the people are praising him?[/quote]

Yes. A reading of the Pentateuch should prove this.

When Moses first approached the Pharaoh, he did not tell him to "let my people go". He said that the people of Israel should be allowed to go into the desert to make sacrifice to and worship the Lord. The pharaoh eventually said only the men could go into the desert, but the women, children, and beasts had to stay. The reason that God finally told the people of Israel to leave was not strictly that they were in slavery, it was that [i]pharaoh would not let them worship the Lord [b]how[/b] he had said it was necessary.[/i]The "How" is very important.

[princessgianna]

[quote name='MilesJesu' post='1659951' date='Sep 20 2008, 01:09 AM']If the only reason someone comes to Mass is for the music, they are missing the point of the Mass.

If the only reason someone comes to Mass is to hear the homily, they are missing the point of the Mass.

When working with people who ask why Mass is boring, I have always answered truthfully: "if you come to be entertained, you will be bored to tears. You will more than likely find better music, a better speaker, or a better "show" somewhere else. But if you come to worship God, then there is no where else to go."

"The day you learn to check yourself at the door, and come to worship, that is when things will change. When you can put yourself on the altar with Christ and unite yourself to Christ's sacrifice, that is the day when Mass will no longer be boring. THAT is the day, when the Mass will come alive and will be the most amazing experience."

I think the pews are empty for more than just the music or the homilies. The cause runs much deeper.

Peace,

MilesJesu[/quote]

so true! my thoughts 2 !

[the lords sheep]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1659524' date='Sep 20 2008, 01:46 AM']In my 46 years of attending Catholic churches, the time that the largest percentage of teens were voluntarily attending, and participating in the mass, was in the early 1970's. That's when we had an assistant pastor who was young, long haired, bearded, and they had drums and electric guitars for the music. He wore the wildest vestments too. The church was rocking and fun. I'm sure it weirded out the gray hairs, but we had more than one mass, so the morning mass was organ and traditional music for them. There are times I wish we could spice things up some. I know that most Phatmassers want only traditional music preferably in Latin. I'd rather see the pews full, and if that means having two masses on Sunday, then what's the harm in having two styles of music.

The fullest, most spirit filled mass in Edmonton is the one on Sunday nights at St. Joseph's College at the University of Alberta. I'm told that it is standing room only most of the time.[/quote]

I'm more or less with Catherine on this one. Not in the sense of dishonesty, that we are having punk services just to get numbers. Its not a popularity contest. Praise and Worship can lead people into prayer, into deep union with our Lord, because it meets young people (and not so young people) where they are spiritually.
You know how couples have a song? Why is it special to them? Because it expresses something that they cannot express themselves. It touches them in a way that other songs do not. Praise and worship music, for many young people, functions in exactly the same manner: it expresses something of their heart, something of their soul to their love, Love itself. In the same way the psalms (written in the style of the time) expressed something deep within the heart of David, praise and worship songs seem to express something of the heart of the young men and women who attend the services.
I think this is an issue that is a preference issue. I will agree that many people take Praise and Worship too far: it becomes more of a rock show then Mass. But the same thing happens with Latin music; a professional choir comes in to chant the intricate Latin pieces, and the Mass becomes more of a concert than a Mass.
My own vocation, as well as the vocations of four close friends, was nurtured in the heart of a Lifeteen parish. I honestly don't think I would be a Catholic anymore were it not for that community. My 10 years of Catholic schooling had left me so bitter and poorly catechized, that I really felt that I had no need for the Church, or for God for that matter. But a friend took me to Mass with her (since my family forced me to go to Mass every Sunday, I thought it was the better alternative), and I slowly began to understand how loving, merciful and deserving of worship our God is. The style of music drew me in, my encounter with Christ in the Mass for the first time through music kept me at that particular parish, and in the Church.

[Resurrexi]

You know, hip-hop or heavy metal could be just as meaningful to some people. And usually Masses with intricate Latin chant or polyphony are Ordinations, First Masses, or Masses of important feasts, in which case the people most certainly would not be going just to hear the music.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1659451' date='Sep 19 2008, 06:49 PM']I'm of the opinion that P&W music is too outdated. I think it's alienating young people, who don't listen to that sort of music. So, to attract young people to the Mass and to foster their active participation, we should really have heavy metal and hip-hop Masses. In fact, what I'm sure teenagers would like best is if we got some bands like Metallica and Slipnot and some hip-hop artists like Rhianna Kanye West to record settings for the Ordinary of the Mass, responsorial psalms, and hymns, and then the music could just be played on speakers at Mass. I mean, it P&W music is suitable for Mass, heavy metal and hip-hop are appropriate as well, right?[/quote]
Hehehehe....

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1659626' date='Sep 19 2008, 09:33 PM']One of the priests (Protestant minister convert!) that I highly respect as he is very knowledgeable with the church in general, has the opinion that campfire music is not appropriate.

I think the problem with young people is that parents do not teach the faith to their children and hand off the responsibility to the schools. The teens and young people I see at mass are the children of parents who care about their faith. Children see their apathetic religious parents go to mass purely as a chore and copy likewise.


I do think we need some better songs but I do not think we should make a campfire out of the mass or a concert.[/quote]
I see what you mean... I see it around all the time. The root IS catechises, not "relevance".

[quote name='MilesJesu' post='1659951' date='Sep 20 2008, 01:09 AM']If the only reason someone comes to Mass is for the music, they are missing the point of the Mass.

If the only reason someone comes to Mass is to hear the homily, they are missing the point of the Mass.

When working with people who ask why Mass is boring, I have always answered truthfully: "if you come to be entertained, you will be bored to tears. You will more than likely find better music, a better speaker, or a better "show" somewhere else. But if you come to worship God, then there is no where else to go."

"The day you learn to check yourself at the door, and come to worship, that is when things will change. When you can put yourself on the altar with Christ and unite yourself to Christ's sacrifice, that is the day when Mass will no longer be boring. THAT is the day, when the Mass will come alive and will be the most amazing experience."

I think the pews are empty for more than just the music or the homilies. The cause runs much deeper.

Peace,

MilesJesu[/quote]
Verbum

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1660037' date='Sep 20 2008, 09:41 AM']to sacrifice true, high worship of God in order to obtain numbers is dishonest. It is lying to ourselves, lying to the people we're trying to rope in, and lying to God.

Lying to ourselves, because we know that that is not how Mass is intended to be, and that it is much more fruitful and a truer worship of the Most High when it is done in a solemn, RESPECTFUL way.

Lying to the people we're trying to rope in, because we are watering down the faith (lex orandi lex credendi). It is better to tell the truth and to lose people because of that than to lie or give in on some important point and therefore gain a couple more people in the pews.

Lying to God because he gave us the way we should pray, and Tradition has held that Way for 2,000 years. We're trying to worship this new way, this "bloodless" "progressive" way. Our sacrifice becomes like that of Cain. The sacrifice of the Mass remains the same, but our end and the way we experience it changes.[/quote]
Dude, that's something to chew on

Srsly, I should have started a new thread or something for these kinds of responses... my 20+ page thread hasn't quite borne this much thought... maybe it's the numerous pages that intimidate people?

STM, you crack me up.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1660156' date='Sep 20 2008, 03:49 PM']You know, hip-hop or heavy metal could be just as meaningful to some people. And usually Masses with intricate Latin chant or polyphony are Ordinations, First Masses, or Masses of important feasts, in which case the people most certainly would not be going just to hear the music.[/quote]


yes, you're very funny.

I really did chuckle to myself when I read that you had written this. It's hilarious because that's pretty much what people really say. hehehehehe.

Edited September 20, 2008 by aalpha1989