Nihil Obstat Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1659496' date='Sep 19 2008, 06:33 PM']I never actually heard that interpretation until more recently, regarding what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was... it got me a little worried because for example once I saw someone who claimed to be filled with the Holy Spirit (while at the same time exhibiting huge amounts of pride and other things that seemed contary to its gifts) and I remember thinking to myself that it was more likely the devil deceiving them, especially because they weren't Catholic and seemed into personal prophecies and interpretations... but I didn't have any idea that could be toeing the line of blaspheming the Holy Spirit... does anyone think it was?[/quote] What's the quote about knowing a tree by its fruits? Something like that? If it's a charistmatic Catholic the issue is a bit simpler; if it causes division, disunity, and uncertainty within the Catholic community, then you can be relatively sure that it's not of God. Although I don't know if we can apply that the same way to a Protestant charismatic... If an ordinary person like us feels something wrong with it... I'd be pretty suspicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1659508' date='Sep 19 2008, 07:36 PM']What's the quote about knowing a tree by its fruits? Something like that? If it's a charistmatic Catholic the issue is a bit simpler; if it causes division, disunity, and uncertainty within the Catholic community, then you can be relatively sure that it's not of God. Although I don't know if we can apply that the same way to a Protestant charismatic... If an ordinary person like us feels something wrong with it... I'd be pretty suspicious.[/quote] I don't know the person very well; it seemed to me that they certainly didn't seem to exhibit the classic gifts of the Holy Spirit, but I didn't continue to pay a lot of attention to the person - it was kind of a passing thought/prejudice that I had in the past, but yeah ... something seemed off and not right about them. But if I knew about what actual Holy Spirit blasphemy was, I probably would have guarded my mind against even suspicious thoughts like that. Can one unknowingly beaver dam oneself by thinking that someone is being deceived by Satan rather than legitimately being led by the Holy Spirit? I sure hope not. Ignorance is usually a quality that disqualifies a person from committing a serious sin. I was raised Catholic my whole life and never remember hearing that interpretation of that verse... I guess this passing thought was in a way a smaller version/reverse of the original post's scenario (except in my case, it was only a passing [i]thought[/i] of mine or two, I didn't outwardly say anything to cast this person into doubt, and I didn't think they were a tool of satan or anything - just sadly and annoyingly misguided). Edited September 19, 2008 by lilac_angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 (edited) [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1659521' date='Sep 19 2008, 06:45 PM']Can one unknowingly beaver dam oneself by doubting that someone is being deceived by Satan rather than legitimately have the Holy Spirit communicate through them?[/quote] I seriously doubt that. I mean, even the Vatican would investigate. They investigate miracles and apparitions and everything like that. Does it mean they're blaspheming or overly suspicious? I don't believe so. At the same time though, hostile suspicion would be bad in any case. I would say to keep an open mind, but try to objectively evaluate the situation and try to see what it truly is. Besides, at this point we have the whole public versus private revelation. We don't even have to believe in any of the modern Marian apparitions as Catholics, even the ones that are officially approved, just because they neither add not detract from what we already know through the Church. Seems pretty similar to me. Edited September 19, 2008 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1659533' date='Sep 19 2008, 07:49 PM']I seriously doubt that. I mean, even the Vatican would investigate. They investigate miracles and apparitions and everything like that. Does it mean they're blaspheming or overly suspicious? I don't believe so. At the same time though, hostile suspicion would be bad in any case. I would say to keep an open mind, but try to objectively evaluate the situation and try to see what it truly is. Besides, at this point we have the whole public versus private revelation. We don't even have to believe in any of the modern Marian apparitions as Catholics, even the ones that are officially approved, just because they neither add not detract from what we already know through the Church. Seems pretty similar to me.[/quote] To be honest, the person annoyed me, so while it was a quick, passing thought, it probably didn't have the nicest feelings behind it. But yeah, I agree that hostility is bad in any case. If you still don't think I'm damned from the doubt and bit of negativity, though, praise the Lord! Yeah, I know I don't have to place credence in any of the private revelations she gathers from these different supposed prophets. It was just my passing judgmental thoughts and the fact that she claims to be backed up by the Spirit in everything she does that worried me. Edited September 19, 2008 by lilac_angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 (edited) Actually, this Catholic forum thread seems to have a wide range of interpretations of what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is/may be: [url="http://www.surprisedbytruth.com/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=221"]http://www.surprisedbytruth.com/forum/topi...mp;TOPIC_ID=221[/url] Some examples: * That this sin is final impenitence, and that the nature of it being unforgivable lies in the lack of repentance on the part of the sinner. * That this sin is calling the Holy Spirit evil, i.e., saying something [u][b]known[/b] to be good [/u] to be from the devil [u]out of pure malice[/u]. * I'm not sure if this is what Catholics think/believe. My Orthodox friend told me that this is the Orthodox view: That (knowingly) rebaptizing or denying the True Presence in the Eucharist could be the unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit because one receives the Holy Spirit upon baptism, etc. * While I don't remember whether this idea was confirmed in other Catholic forums or not, I was always taught that the sin against the Holy Spirit is not asking for forgiveness. * The unforgivable sin is when you reject the love of God, who is the Holy Spirit. It when a person doesn't ask for forgiveness, because they think that their sins are,"too great" for God to forgive them. * The "New Jerome Biblical Commentary (NJBC)" states: Blasphemy against the Spirit: This difficult saying has been transmitted in both Marcan and Q forms. Matthew attempts to combine them here. Characteristic of the Q form is the two-step structure: sin against the Son of Man, forgivable; sin against the holy Spirit, unforgivable. Historically, this sin has been understood in various ways: presuming to attain salvation without faith and love, despair of salvation, obstinacy in sin or error, final impenitence, apostasy. Exegetically, the likeliest view is "persistence in consummate and obdurate opposition to the influence of the Spirit" (J.A. Fitsmyer, The Gospel According to Luke, 964). Theologically, the last interpretation may offer hope for the salvation of people who lack an explicit faith in Jesus Christ yet who are implicitly open to his saving power through their trust in the Spirit, who is less sharply defined historically. This view conflicts with v 30 above, but perhaps the dialectic is intentional (see R. Scroggs, Journal of Biblical Liturature 84 [1965] 359-73)" It seems the exegesis for this passage is still among Catholic speculation. Edited September 20, 2008 by lilac_angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1659546' date='Sep 19 2008, 06:58 PM']To be honest, the person annoyed me, so while it was a quick, passing thought, it probably didn't have the nicest feelings behind it. But yeah, I agree that hostility is bad in any case. If you still don't think I'm damned from the doubt and bit of negativity, though, praise the Lord! Yeah, I know I don't have to place credence in any of the private revelations she gathers from these different supposed prophets. It was just my passing judgmental thoughts and the fact that she claims to be backed up by the Spirit in everything she does that worried me.[/quote] I'm sorry yes, I did know that you know that. When I get going on something like that, usually about half of what I type is more of my thought process than what I actually need to say. I don't think that one is dam[i][/i]ned by being a little big annoyed or hostile every once in a while. At least I hope not. Otherwise we're all dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1659564' date='Sep 19 2008, 07:14 PM']I'm sorry yes, I did know that you know that. When I get going on something like that, usually about half of what I type is more of my thought process than what I actually need to say. I don't think that one is dam[i][/i]ned by being a little big annoyed or hostile every once in a while. At least I hope not. Otherwise we're all dead.[/quote] Oh yeah, I know, I just was worried because it was combined with Holy Spirit thing. (I worry a lot anyway, and of course, this is the issue I would worry the most about! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1659566' date='Sep 19 2008, 07:18 PM']Oh yeah, I know, I just was worried because it was combined with Holy Spirit thing. (I worry a lot anyway, and of course, this is the issue I would worry the most about! [/quote] Hehe, I worry lots too! Just not about this. I've found that I tend to be happier if I only worry about the things that I can actually do something about. Not to say I forget about everything else, but I try not to let it get to me. Although when it does, I have a really depressing couple days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1659569' date='Sep 19 2008, 08:27 PM']Hehe, I worry lots too! Just not about this. I've found that I tend to be happier if I only worry about the things that I can actually do something about. Not to say I forget about everything else, but I try not to let it get to me. Although when it does, I have a really depressing couple days. [/quote] Yeah... but if I'm already damned, then that means anything I do is hopeless and without meaning...and I have to suffer eternal torment... I mean, I don't think I am, but... ack it's hard not to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1659575' date='Sep 19 2008, 07:32 PM']Yeah... but if I'm already damned, then that means anything I do is hopeless and without meaning...and I have to suffer eternal torment... I mean, I don't think I am, but... ack it's hard not to worry about.[/quote] Lol, I remember mentioning on another thread... the whole idea of hell just terrifies me! Like if I thought about it long enough, I'd probably end up shaking and crying in a corner. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's completely scared of that, yea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1659577' date='Sep 19 2008, 07:35 PM']Lol, I remember mentioning on another thread... the whole idea of hell just terrifies me! Like if I thought about it long enough, I'd probably end up shaking and crying in a corner. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's completely scared of that, yea? [/quote] Yeah, of course not.. well, my husband doesn't seem to think I'm damned and says I'm just being overscrupulous, and maybe I am, especially in light of some of the interpretations I posted earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1659581' date='Sep 19 2008, 07:41 PM']Yeah, of course not.. well, my husband doesn't seem to think I'm damned and says I'm just being overscrupulous, and maybe I am, especially in light of some of the interpretations I posted earlier.[/quote] I think that the holier one gets, the more faults they notice in themself. I mean, look at St. Augustine's Confessions. He's pretty hard on himself, and he's a saint. The more truth you begin to understand, I think that you realize more and more clearly just how hard it is to practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1659588' date='Sep 19 2008, 07:48 PM']I think that the holier one gets, the more faults they notice in themself. I mean, look at St. Augustine's Confessions. He's pretty hard on himself, and he's a saint. The more truth you begin to understand, I think that you realize more and more clearly just how hard it is to practice.[/quote] More is expected of us when we understand more...the more we know, the more we are held accountable for... but luckily the graces we have are greater as we grow in holiness, so that can make it easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1659601' date='Sep 19 2008, 08:06 PM']More is expected of us when we understand more...the more we know, the more we are held accountable for... but luckily the graces we have are greater as we grow in holiness, so that can make it easier.[/quote] Yep, we're given all we need. Doesn't mean it's easy, but really... we wouldn't have it any other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majella Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 Thank God I became a Catholic after 32 years of protestant indoctrination. Deo Gratias!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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