Lutheran And Non Demonintaional Christians Will Acheive Salvation

[Guest]

[quote name='mortify' post='1658626' date='Sep 18 2008, 07:09 PM']The reality is there probably is an invincibly ignorant non-Catholic Christian who strives to get closer to God and lives according to His graces, such a person is in fact closer to being inside the Church than outside, and by the Mercy of God such a person can die as a member of the Mystical Body of Christ.[/quote]

I cant see God right now but I would bet he cringes at this
There is just not "probally an invincibly ignoratn non-catholic Christian who strives to get closer to God", there are tons and tons and tons.
It seems like what lousiville fan said, that alot of times it seems non catholic christians do a better job of representing Gods love then catholics do. (and anyhow if their really in a relationshiop with God their catholic anyhow, they just may not know it)
Thats not a shot at cathoics but there are alot of non catholic christians who are on fire for God.
And again, to question their salvation anymore then you would question a cathoics salvation is pretty unfair.
If they are baptised and the church calls them brothers and sisters in Christ, why do cathoics who have no authority to speak on the manner accuse them and question their salvation ?

Edited September 19, 2008 by Guest

[mortify]

[quote]Invincible ignorance may not be a "clear" phrase. I think it's worthy of some explanation, though anyone with common sense and knowledge of God's justice and mercy should have no problem seeing what the Catechism is getting at.[/quote]

And what is your understanding of invincible ignorance?

[quote]Probably? Funny thing is, I've heard Protestants use the same language in reference to Catholics. "There are probably some Catholics who are following Christ in their heart in spite of the Church they belong to."[/quote]

I don't mind protestants thinking the way they do. The reason why I said probably is because I honestly don't know any.

[quote]However, there are also very solid reasons based on Scripture (and even some Tradition) to support their beliefs.[/quote]

There is not justifiable reason to remain outside of the Catholic Church by being Protestant.

[quote]The mental, cultural, and psychological roadblocks are difficult to overcome too. When you are raised to equate prayer with worship, even if you understand that praying to a saint is not worshipping the saint, it still feels like blasphemy at first. The heart does not immediately follow the mind.[/quote]

No one is denying there will be difficulties but difficulties are not an excuse. God will give such people the grace they need to be Catholic.

[quote]Bottom line is, a Protestant usually has to become pretty darn determined about becoming Catholic to overcome all that, or they have to be so apathetic that none of it matters anyway.[/quote]

Such determination is required and God's grace will provide.
[quote]While we are all Christians, their's is a very different worldview, and I believe they are right to not abandon it so lightly.[/quote]
[quote]I get the impression that you still want to charge Protestants with the "sin of separation," but the Church does not.[/quote]

It's to their own benefit they become Catholic. Certain sacraments are so essential it's impossible to make it to heaven without them, and the others help us so greatly that without them heaven is very difficult.

[quote]The corrollary with that paragraph is the CCC's statement that modern generations of Protestants are not guilty of the sin of separating from the Church. It may be different for a Catholic who leaves the Church, but when you look at how lifeless most parishes are, and how most Catholics live their lives as non-Christians, it's difficult to blame someone for judging the tree by its fruit.[/quote]

This does not justify apostasy because my neighbor's actions should not affect what I personally know to be true.
[quote]Of course, what we all need to get around to is celebrating our faith, the joy of salvation, and serving outside the Church. We can sit here and debate about the mind of God and whether he is judging most Protestants to be "in" or "out," but the truth is we don't know. All we know is justice and mercy, and that's where the Catechism leaves it. We know God doesn't judge people for sins when they aren't at fault, but we also know He is just. We can pray, and even in the rosary we pray for the salvation of all souls.[/quote]

No one has condemned protestants as a whole on this thread. I personally believe most Protestants are capable of learning the truth, that is all. We are all responsible for our salvation and we are all free to choose or reject God's graces, He alone is our judge. Salvation is important to talk about because most Catholics think just about everyone makes it to heaven.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1658898' date='Sep 19 2008, 01:13 AM']ya and thats good news, i dont know why so many people want to say there not ?? [/quote]

some people just like to cause trouble

[mortify]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1659194' date='Sep 19 2008, 01:09 PM']Thats not a shot at cathoics but there are alot of non catholic christians who are on fire for God.
And again, to question their salvation anymore then you would question a cathoics salvation is pretty unfair.
If they are baptised and the church calls them brothers and sisters in Christ, why do cathoics who have no authority to speak on the manner accuse them and question their salvation ?[/quote]

Just to be clear, are you saying Protestants have certainty of salvation outside of the Catholic Church?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1659194' date='Sep 19 2008, 12:09 PM']If they are baptised and the church calls them brothers and sisters in Christ, why do cathoics who have no authority to speak on the manner accuse them and question their salvation ?[/quote]

Because "[t]hose men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it." (Ad Gentes 7)

In addition, we don't know who will be saved, so we shouldn't assume anyone, even fellow Catholics, will be going to heaven. We can only be sure that Christ and the Saints are in heaven.

Edited September 19, 2008 by StThomasMore

[Selah]

[quote]"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." - Catechism of the Catholic Church, 838[/quote]

THERE it is! *copies and pastes*

[Resurrexi]

BTW, does anyone think it's a little comical that the title post uses the term "ordained Catholics"? I guess deliveryboy was objecting to the belief that only the clergy can go to heaven? That sort of extreme clericalism must have very recently developed!

Edited September 19, 2008 by StThomasMore

[goldenchild17]

come on now . Even I let that one slide.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1659405' date='Sep 19 2008, 04:38 PM']come on now . Even I let that one slide.[/quote]
I wasn't the only one that noticed.
I guess I've got past my grammar nazi/ultraclarity tendencies.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1652715' date='Sep 10 2008, 09:01 PM']lol i guess ??
so you have no hope for them ??[/quote]

hey bro, just wanted to give that reference that I said I was looking for. From the Syllabus of Errors. The following is a condemned statement, meaning it is against Catholic teaching to believe it:

17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ.–Encyclical "Quanto Conficiamur Moerore," Aug. 10, 1863, etc. (CONDEMNED)

I suppose it could be debated on whether or not non-Catholics are a part of the Church, but I don't believe they are, so at least for me, the above applies to them.

There does exist a salvation for the invincibly ignorant, but it is not possible to apply this principle to any one non-Catholic. All we can know is that it exists and pray that our non-Catholic friends and/or family fall into this category. But it is not possible to HOPE for this, and even worse to assume that it is the case.

not here to debate, just wanted to make sure I followed through on this quote since I said I'd get it for you. peace

Edited September 20, 2008 by goldenchild17

[mortify]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1659671' date='Sep 19 2008, 09:07 PM']I do believe the Church is a visible organization, like a "city set on a hill", and there is no such hidden component that we cannot determine.[/quote]

Not to debate you, but what do you make of baptism of desire and those with implicit faith?

[goldenchild17]

I edited that part out . BOB/BOD exists, as does invincible ignorance. Anyone and everyone that dies with any one of these provisions goes to heaven, but as a Catholic, not as a non-Catholic. We do not and cannot know who this applies to, and we cannot have good hope for the salvation of any non-Catholic. All that we can know is that it is technically possible and we can pray that it will apply to someone we know and love that has died, but we cannot hope and worse cannot assume that it actually has applied to them.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1659381' date='Sep 19 2008, 05:57 PM']And what is your understanding of invincible ignorance?[/quote]

That one is innocent of their own ignorance, not feigning ignorance, slothful in pursuing the truth, or otherwise ignorant because of their own sin.

[quote name='mortify' post='1659381' date='Sep 19 2008, 05:57 PM']I don't mind protestants thinking the way they do. The reason why I said probably is because I honestly don't know any.[/quote]

How many Protestants do you know? Your perspective would probably be very different if you had been one in the past. I know a lot of Protestants, many of them former Catholics, and most of them bear the fruit of living according to the graces God has given them. Thankfully, most of my former Catholic friends actually have a positive impression of the Church overall, but the faith has yet to connect with their hearts. God's Justice proclaims them guilty; His Mercy begs for compassion; their judgment rests on things we cannot see hidden in the heart, but it can bear fruit in things we do see and that's all I have to go by.

[quote name='mortify' post='1659381' date='Sep 19 2008, 05:57 PM']There is not justifiable reason to remain outside of the Catholic Church by being Protestant.

No one is denying there will be difficulties but difficulties are not an excuse. God will give such people the grace they need to be Catholic.

Such determination is required and God's grace will provide.[/quote]

Well... sure is a mercilessly hard line you take there.

Tell me, have you ever had to confess a habitual sin over and over during Confession? And if you were to have this same habitual sin on your soul at a time your life unexpectedly ended, would you like God to take the same unmerciful stance with you that you believe He takes with Protestants? After all, you had access to sacramental grace! Stands to reason no Catholic should ever have to confess the same sin twice...

Now, since you introduced the word "excuse," let me nip that in the bud by clarifying that the point isn't to come up with excuses. Rather, what the Church says about Protestants is simply that they are judged by Justice and Mercy just the same as everyone else, and based on revelation, we can reason why God might welcome a non-Catholic Christian into eternal life. For example, it typically requires a lot more determination to become Catholic than to remain one, as change is usually not welcome by a person, so wouldn't our Judge take into account that element of our fallen human nature?

[quote name='mortify' post='1659381' date='Sep 19 2008, 05:57 PM']No one has condemned protestants as a whole on this thread. I personally believe most Protestants are capable of learning the truth, that is all. We are all responsible for our salvation and we are all free to choose or reject God's graces, He alone is our judge. Salvation is important to talk about because most Catholics think just about everyone makes it to heaven.[/quote]

I believe what that Church teaches, and the Church does not say "just about everyone" is going to Heaven, nor does the Church make any proclamation about how many Protestants are capable of learning the truth. Those speculations exist only in the heads of wishful thinkers who believe they can read God's mind, but they forget this is the same God who made as the pinnacle of all Creation one whose mind is darn near impossible to read.

So, if there are things we do not know, why hold them up as though we were convinced of them?

Edited September 22, 2008 by LouisvilleFan