Lutheran And Non Demonintaional Christians Will Acheive Salvation

[mortify]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1657385' date='Sep 17 2008, 11:24 AM']Well, last I checked, Truth and Love = dogmatic faith. I know other people have their own ideas, but we're both speaking here as faithful Catholics agreeing on what it means to believe in Truth and Love through the Person of Jesus.[/quote]

I honestly do not know what you mean by Truth and Love, it sounds like you're referring to God. Even though you may personally see dogmatic faith in those terms someone else might see something different, even something contrary to the Faith. I know theology can be dry and difficult because of it's terminology but there's a good reason why everything is so thoroughly defined.

[quote]What is an image used in old Catechisms? Lutherans dangling off the side of the boat on ropes? That's the part that seems wacky to me, like trying to force too much theology into a metaphor.[/quote]

A picture showing Catechumens getting on the Ark by ropes, this is what I was told by a senior Catholic who was taught from the older catechisms. Such depictions aren't meant to be pretty, they're meant to teach something theologically. There is only one Ark, those who refuse entry will perish, and those who seek entry will find safety. The only exception is for those with invincible ignorance who strive to know God and live according to the graces they receive. I emphasize *invincible* ignorance, since mere ignorance is not sufficient. By invincibility is meant no matter how HARD someone tries they WON'T be able to know the Truth. An example would be a native living on a remote island; outside of an Angel teaching him the Gospel and offering the sacraments it is impossible for a such a person to recognize the Truth. The average protestant does not fit the category of invincibly ignorant.

[Guest]

just read this in the phorum guidelines. wish i'd seen it earlier.

"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." - Catechism of the Catholic Church, 838

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1657541' date='Sep 17 2008, 07:07 PM']I honestly do not know what you mean by Truth and Love, it sounds like you're referring to God. Even though you may personally see dogmatic faith in those terms someone else might see something different, even something contrary to the Faith. I know theology can be dry and difficult because of it's terminology but there's a good reason why everything is so thoroughly defined.[/quote]

Well, guess I figured a few assumptions were safe among those of us who know the Church teaching on these matters. I didn't want to insult your intelligence by spelling it all out like you're a catechumen yourself At any rate, Jesus himself said that everything is summed up in the two greatest commandments: love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Catholicism is simply doing that. Denying the Faith is not loving God, or Catholicism is a lie, right?

[quote name='mortify' post='1657541' date='Sep 17 2008, 07:07 PM']A picture showing Catechumens getting on the Ark by ropes, this is what I was told by a senior Catholic who was taught from the older catechisms. Such depictions aren't meant to be pretty, they're meant to teach something theologically.[/quote]

Okay, this illustration makes sense. Calling those catechumens Protestants is very different, and I think lacks theological basis.

[quote name='mortify' post='1657541' date='Sep 17 2008, 07:07 PM']The only exception is for those with invincible ignorance who strive to know God and live according to the graces they receive. I emphasize *invincible* ignorance, since mere ignorance is not sufficient. By invincibility is meant no matter how HARD someone tries they WON'T be able to know the Truth. An example would be a native living on a remote island; outside of an Angel teaching him the Gospel and offering the sacraments it is impossible for a such a person to recognize the Truth. The average protestant does not fit the category of invincibly ignorant.[/quote]

Where does your definintion of invincibility come from? I believe the average Protestant most likely is invincibly ignorant, but it all depends on what it means to be invincible. I don't think it something we can define, really. It's a matter of one's heart and mind, which only God knows. Can you explain how your belief about the average Protestant reconciles with that paragraph 838 of the Catechism?

By the way, were you raised Protestant?

Edited September 18, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Paddington]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1658184' date='Sep 18 2008, 12:31 PM']I believe the average Protestant most likely is invincibly ignorant, but it all depends on what it means to be invincible.[/quote]

That is plain as day. Invincible ignorance is just different than inculpable ignorance.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1658201' date='Sep 18 2008, 11:55 AM']That is plain as day. Invincible ignorance is just different than inculpable ignorance.[/quote]

Yes, it may be splitting hairs a bit, but I'm sure the vocabulary was chosen for a good reason. The bottom line is, the Church believes God is merciful when we are not at fault or ignorant of a sin. All the finer details (such as whether a faithful Lutheran might be saved) are based on the knowledge revealed to us of God's mercy.

Of course, mercy can be overemphasized to an extreme that some people think God will overlook almost any sin, but in those situations we would generally be referring to people who are not ignorant (i.e. Catholics).

Edited September 18, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Guest]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1658184' date='Sep 18 2008, 10:01 AM']It's a matter of one's heart and mind, which only God knows. Can you explain how your belief about the average Protestant reconciles with that paragraph 838 of the Catechism?[/quote]

exactly

[Seven77]

all baptized non-Catholic Christians are "imperfect members" of the Catholic Church

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1657916' date='Sep 17 2008, 11:27 PM']just read this in the phorum guidelines. wish i'd seen it earlier.

"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." - Catechism of the Catholic Church, 838[/quote]

[mortify]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1658184' date='Sep 18 2008, 10:01 AM']Well, guess I figured a few assumptions were safe among those of us who know the Church teaching on these matters.[/quote]

Friend, we can't even come to agreement over a clear phrase like invincible ignorance, how do you expect me to presume the meaning of your vague statement?

[quote]I didn't want to insult your intelligence by spelling it all out like you're a catechumen yourself [/quote]

You would not be insulting me.

[quote]Okay, this illustration makes sense. Calling those catechumens Protestants is very different, and I think lacks theological basis.[/quote]

I was not calling Catechumens protestants. The reality is there probably is an invincibly ignorant non-Catholic Christian who strives to get closer to God and lives according to His graces, such a person is in fact closer to being inside the Church than outside, and by the Mercy of God such a person can die as a member of the Mystical Body of Christ.

[quote]Where does your definintion of invincibility come from? I believe the average Protestant most likely is invincibly ignorant, but it all depends on what it means to be invincible. I don't think it something we can define, really. It's a matter of one's heart and mind, which only God knows.[/quote]

If a person is capable of learning the Truth they are not invincibly ignorant. The average protestant is fully capable of learning the truth.

Stubbornness is not invincible ignorance.

[quote]Can you explain how your belief about the average Protestant reconciles with that paragraph 838 of the Catechism?[/quote]

How does it contradict?
[quote]By the way, were you raised Protestant?[/quote]

No, I was not.

Edited September 19, 2008 by mortify

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1658184' date='Sep 18 2008, 08:01 AM']Can you explain how your belief about the average Protestant reconciles with that paragraph 838 of the Catechism?

By the way, were you raised Protestant?[/quote]

The quotation from the CCC has nothing to do with whether most Protestants are invincibly ignorant, it only states that they are in a partial communion with the Church through their baptism the parts of the Catholic faith which they do profess.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]"In fact, those who through no fault of their own are not aware of the Gospel of Christ and the Church, but who nonetheless search sincerely for God, and with the help of grace attempt to carry out His will, known through the dictates of their conscience – they too can attain eternal salvation.[/quote]

[Guest]

very true and thank God for that

Edited September 19, 2008 by Guest

[Guest]

[quote name='Seven77' post='1658551' date='Sep 18 2008, 06:05 PM']all baptized non-Catholic Christians are "imperfect members" of the Catholic Church [/quote]

ya and thats good news, i dont know why so many people want to say there not ??

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1658626' date='Sep 18 2008, 09:09 PM']Friend, we can't even come to agreement over a clear phrase like invincible ignorance, how do you expect me to presume the meaning of your vague statement?[/quote]

My original statement was: Accepting Truth and Love (to the best of your ability) are your ticket on the boat; rejecting them mean you aren't on the boat. We both know what the Church teaches about knowing Truth and Love in the Person of Jesus.

Invincible ignorance may not be a "clear" phrase. I think it's worthy of some explanation, though anyone with common sense and knowledge of God's justice and mercy should have no problem seeing what the Catechism is getting at.

[quote name='mortify' post='1658626' date='Sep 18 2008, 09:09 PM']I was not calling Catechumens protestants.[/quote]

Okay, somebody earlier in the thread applied the people-hanging-on-ropes image to Protestants, and I still don't think that one makes any sense. Any image or analogy of the Church should apply just as well pre-Reformation as it does today. To have an analogy that implies the Reformation changed the nature of Christ's Church gives the Reformers too much credit

[quote name='mortify' post='1658626' date='Sep 18 2008, 09:09 PM']The reality is there probably is an invincibly ignorant non-Catholic Christian who strives to get closer to God and lives according to His graces, such a person is in fact closer to being inside the Church than outside, and by the Mercy of God such a person can die as a member of the Mystical Body of Christ.[/quote]

Probably? Funny thing is, I've heard Protestants use the same language in reference to Catholics. "There are probably some Catholics who are following Christ in their heart in spite of the Church they belong to."

[quote name='mortify' post='1658626' date='Sep 18 2008, 09:09 PM']If a person is capable of learning the Truth they are not invincibly ignorant. The average protestant is fully capable of learning the truth.

Stubbornness is not invincible ignorance.[/quote]

It's not usually stubborness that keeps Protestants from become Catholic. For most of my friends, I believe it's simply a lack of conviction that being Catholic is very different from being Baptist (on the practical level of following Christ day in and day out). However, there are also very solid reasons based on Scripture (and even some Tradition) to support their beliefs. The mental, cultural, and psychological roadblocks are difficult to overcome too. When you are raised to equate prayer with worship, even if you understand that praying to a saint is not worshipping the saint, it still feels like blasphemy at first. The heart does not immediately follow the mind.

Bottom line is, a Protestant usually has to become pretty darn determined about becoming Catholic to overcome all that, or they have to be so apathetic that none of it matters anyway. While we are all Christians, their's is a very different worldview, and I believe they are right to not abandon it so lightly.

[quote name='mortify' post='1658626' date='Sep 18 2008, 09:09 PM']How does it contradict?[/quote]

I get the impression that you still want to charge Protestants with the "sin of separation," but the Church does not.

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1658811' date='Sep 19 2008, 12:48 AM']The quotation from the CCC has nothing to do with whether most Protestants are invincibly ignorant, it only states that they are in a partial communion with the Church through their baptism the parts of the Catholic faith which they do profess.[/quote]

The corrollary with that paragraph is the CCC's statement that modern generations of Protestants are not guilty of the sin of separating from the Church. It may be different for a Catholic who leaves the Church, but when you look at how lifeless most parishes are, and how most Catholics live their lives as non-Christians, it's difficult to blame someone for judging the tree by its fruit.

Of course, what we all need to get around to is celebrating our faith, the joy of salvation, and serving outside the Church. We can sit here and debate about the mind of God and whether he is judging most Protestants to be "in" or "out," but the truth is we don't know. All we know is justice and mercy, and that's where the Catechism leaves it. We know God doesn't judge people for sins when they aren't at fault, but we also know He is just. We can pray, and even in the rosary we pray for the salvation of all souls.

[Guest]

Great stuff Lousiville Fan, you deserve a church militant

[Guest]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1659050' date='Sep 19 2008, 11:07 AM']Probably? Funny thing is, I've heard Protestants use the same language in reference to Catholics. "There are probably some Catholics who are following Christ in their heart in spite of the Church they belong to."

[font="Arial Black"]So true......[/font]


It's not usually stubborness that keeps Protestants from become Catholic. For most of my friends, I believe it's simply a lack of conviction that being Catholic is very different from being Baptist (on the practical level of following Christ day in and day out). However, there are also very solid reasons based on Scripture (and even some Tradition) to support their beliefs. The mental, cultural, and psychological roadblocks are difficult to overcome too. When you are raised to equate prayer with worship, even if you understand that praying to a saint is not worshipping the saint, it still feels like blasphemy at first. The heart does not immediately follow the mind.

Bottom line is, a Protestant usually has to become pretty darn determined about becoming Catholic to overcome all that, or they have to be so apathetic that none of it matters anyway. While we are all Christians, their's is a very different worldview, and I believe they are right to not abandon it so lightly.



I get the impression that you still want to charge Protestants with the "sin of separation," but the Church does not.
[font="Arial Black"]
CHURCH MILITANT ![/font]

The corrollary with that paragraph is the CCC's statement that modern generations of Protestants are not guilty of the sin of separating from the Church. It may be different for a Catholic who leaves the Church, but when you look at how lifeless most parishes are, and how most Catholics live their lives as non-Christians, it's difficult to blame someone for judging the tree by its fruit.

Of course, what we all need to get around to is celebrating our faith, the joy of salvation, and serving outside the Church. We can sit here and debate about the mind of God and whether he is judging most Protestants to be "in" or "out," but the truth is we don't know. All we know is justice and mercy, and that's where the Catechism leaves it. We know God doesn't judge people for sins when they aren't at fault, but we also know He is just. We can pray, and even in the rosary we pray for the salvation of all souls.[/quote]

Edited September 19, 2008 by Guest