StColette Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1653266' date='Sep 11 2008, 04:29 PM']but it is still by faith that makes grace possible right ? without faith no grace is possible ? and if one has faith that grace extends to all christians who have faith right ?[/quote] Read the Catechism quote I gave. It is grace that makes faith possible. As CCC 1996 says, "Our justification comes from the grace of God. [b]Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.[/b]" 46 There is an initial Grace given by God that enables us to respond to his call, because without it we could not respond because that would be something done by our own merit and not by God. We only have faith because God has first called us, through His grace, to have faith. Which means it's that grace that initializes our faith. Everything points back to God. He initializes everything. It is up to us to respond. It is by the free gift of Grace, that initial grace, that we are able to turn toward Him in faith. This quote might be helpful also 1989 [b]The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion[/b], effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 [b]Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin[/b], thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39 Another good quote 2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50 Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51 Make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 [quote name='StColette' post='1653282' date='Sep 11 2008, 04:40 PM']Read the Catechism quote I gave. It is grace that makes faith possible. As CCC 1996 says, "Our justification comes from the grace of God. [b]Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.[/b]" 46 There is an initial Grace given by God that enables us to respond to his call, because without it we could not respond because that would be something done by our own merit and not by God. We only have faith because God has first called us, through His grace, to have faith. Which means it's that grace that initializes our faith. Everything points back to God. He initializes everything. It is up to us to respond. It is by the free gift of Grace, that initial grace, that we are able to turn toward Him in faith. This quote might be helpful also 1989 [b]The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion[/b], effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 [b]Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin[/b], thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39 Make sense?[/quote] yes, makes perfect sence. thank you so much ! it makes you wonder why everyone doesnt respond to God since he wills us all to be saved, which means he must send singnals to everyone, some just must ignore him their whole lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1653297' date='Sep 11 2008, 04:49 PM']it makes you wonder why everyone doesnt respond to God since he wills us all to be saved, which means he must send singnals to everyone, some just must ignore him their whole lives. [/quote] Yes, it's very sad. God gives us the grace to believe but also the freedom to refuse Him. He does not force us to believe, but is truly a Loving Father and gives His children the freedom to love Him in return without force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 ya very true... im glad all christians wether they call themselves catholics or not have responded to this grace. and i also pray for the ones trying to "play" God and fool themselves into thinking once saved always saved so im going to do whatever i please. God is not mocked. We reap what we sow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommas_boy Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1652567' date='Sep 10 2008, 07:58 PM']I've heard it compared to gyms, with 'being fit' being equated to salvation. Mother Church is like a big, fancy gym. There's lots of equipment to help you get in shape (sacraments) and there are personal trainers to make sure you're going in the right direction (the successors of St. Peter). Who says that you can't get fit by going to a smaller place (non-Catholic, Christian sect) with only some dumbells and a stairmaster(Only some of the sacraments, ie. baptism)? No one is saying that, but we'd both agree that it would be more difficult.[/quote] Nice. Oh, and also -- simply having a gym membership won't get you fit either. You actually have to *work* out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 I'm quite content thinking about my own salvation, without deciding who else will or will not enter Heaven. That's God's job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1653148' date='Sep 11 2008, 02:29 PM']Lets not forget one who is not an ordained catholic can attend a church where sacraments are present. [color="#FF0000"]Enter yes, recieve not necessarly [/color] Anyone can go to God for forgiveness of sins if they repent with a sincere heart that wants to change. [color="#FF0000"]Can go yes... that does not equate to forgivness, necessarly[/color] As a catholic when I sin mortally, I go to a priest, [color="#FF0000"]and that priest decideds weather or not to give you absolution, priest can deny absolution,[/color] but still, God will not ignore a sinner who repents on his knees in his closet with a sincere heart that wants to change. [color="#FF0000"]Ignore no, but only an act of perfect contrition will suffice without sacramental forgivness.[/color] You do not have to be at a catholic mass to take communion and eat christ's body and drink his blood.[color="#FF0000"]Your right, you can go to an Orthodox Mass, no other Church has a true communion, they do not eat of His Flesh or drink of His Blood, this leaves other scriptural questions butthose are extrainious here. [/color] As a catholic I choose to do this at mass but holy mass is not the only place this can happen. [color="#FF0000"]UM YES IT IS![/color] To say that other churches do not offer sacraments for salvation I think is a bit arrogant ? I do agree that the catholic church is your best bet, but to swear off all the other churches as being sacramentless ?? I dont know about that..... [color="#FF0000"]Excepting the Orthodox church, the other churches only offer baptism, as that can be done by any Christian, and I suppose marriage, I am not going to get into that one, It was speculated in the past that perhaps the churches which actually had Taken bishops with them and were int he Apostolic succession might offer Confirmation.... but that was decided in the negative.[/color][/quote] No pretty much the protestants offer no sacraments except baptism and some not even that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 [quote]Nice. Oh, and also -- simply having a gym membership won't get you fit either. You actually have to *work* out.[/quote] Yep! lol. I can't tell you hoaw many times I've repeated that (well not that, but something similar) to Prots...they no listen anyway. oy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1653304' date='Sep 11 2008, 04:58 PM']ya very true... im glad all christians wether they call themselves catholics or not have responded to this grace. and i also pray for the ones trying to "play" God and fool themselves into thinking once saved always saved so im going to do whatever i please. God is not mocked. We reap what we sow.[/quote] If they had FULLY responded to this grace, they would be Catholic, if that was at all possible. But they certianly have at least partially responded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 I guess in the end we'll all find out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 But Mortify, Christ said we can know now! "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free". "Those who worship the Father shall worship in spirit and TRUTH". If it was revealed it was meant to be known and can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1652718' date='Sep 10 2008, 09:03 PM']Are they baptised ?? Because if they are i really dont see how you can make a case. All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church." -CCC, paragraph 818[/quote] dude sorry I totally forgot this post. I was going to reply to it but wanted to pull out a passage from a book I own. Still can't find the quote but I'll give it to you when I find it. Basically it was a pre-Vat reference which teaches that while it is POSSIBLE for a non-Catholic (baptised or otherwise) to be saved, whether by BOB or BOD, it is not to be expected. It is not really even to be hoped for. The best we can do is pray that God has mercy on their soul and converts them (ordinarily or extra-ordinarily) somehow before death. As for the CCC reference: I have an "I don't rep the pope" tag for a reason . I hate the CCC with a passion. I don't consider it to be Catholic at all. but that's not for this forum to discuss. peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pan!c139 Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 [quote name='goldenchild17' post='1656013' date='Sep 15 2008, 01:05 PM']As for the CCC reference: I have an "I don't rep the pope" tag for a reason . I hate the CCC with a passion. I don't consider it to be Catholic at all. but that's not for this forum to discuss. peace[/quote] Explain why? It covers mostly all of the beliefs the Catholic Church holds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 [quote name='pan!c139' post='1656026' date='Sep 15 2008, 04:36 PM']Explain why? It covers mostly all of the beliefs the Catholic Church holds... [/quote] In a different thread though please. So as not to detract from this current topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 [quote name='pan!c139' post='1656026' date='Sep 15 2008, 03:36 PM']Explain why? It covers mostly all of the beliefs the Catholic Church holds... [/quote] Well I'm not sure about "mostly" and even if it did, "mostly" is not good enough. If it is mostly Catholic but hold even one teaching that is different then it is not Catholic. But regardless, I think it's a lot more severe than just that. But my email address is in my profile I think, if you want more in depth about it. I won't address it on the phorum until/unless dUST opens the ideas for discussion. peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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