Lutheran And Non Demonintaional Christians Will Acheive Salvation

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1652840' date='Sep 11 2008, 01:05 AM']Yep just like catholics arent guaranteed salvation either.[/quote]

I was going to note that, too, but my post was getting long and since it was a side point I left it off. Figured everyone knew I meant that, too.

[Guest]

haha
they did.
i have a bad habbit of trying to get the last word.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1652867' date='Sep 10 2008, 11:29 PM']haha
they did.
i have a bad habbit of trying to get the last word.[/quote]
Me too! I like seeing my name as the last person to post.
Really, that's the only reason for posting this. I'm sorry.

Just so this isn't a complete waste of time, I don't think any of the different opinions expressed here are wrong in any way. It's just different emphases. (Is emphases a real word? I was trying to pluralize emphasis like you would pluralize thesis.)

[Guest]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1652873' date='Sep 11 2008, 12:32 AM']Me too! I like seeing my name as the last person to post.
Really, that's the only reason for posting this. I'm sorry. [/quote]

Yep Yep me to, me to....



[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1652873' date='Sep 11 2008, 12:32 AM']Just so this isn't a complete waste of time, I don't think any of the different opinions expressed here are wrong in any way. It's just different emphases. (Is emphases a real word? I was trying to pluralize emphasis like you would pluralize thesis.)[/quote]

Agreed

Edited September 11, 2008 by Guest

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1652840' date='Sep 11 2008, 12:05 AM']Yep just like catholics arent guarnteed salvation either. Its only through faith that we acheive salvation. You can go to everysingle mass and take communion everyday but if you dont have faith you dont have salvation. Granted it would be pretty odd for this example to play out but you get what im saying. Being catholic and going to church every week doesnt assure salvation either. God is only pleased through faith and love.[/quote]


Faith does not save.... Love does not save... Grace saves. The Sacraments are necessary for Salvation, Salvation without the Sacraments can only be thought of as tremendously extraordinary. One can never be assured of Salvation, but one can be sure that it is far far easier for a Catholic to be saved than anyone else.

[Guest]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1652969' date='Sep 11 2008, 10:09 AM']Faith does not save.... Love does not save... Grace saves.[/quote]

First off peace Don John,
Ok, so if as a catholic, im supposed to believe faith and love doesnt save I really need some help understanding that ?? Am I not supposed to read or believe the new testement as a catholic ??
Because the whole new testement focusus on being saved by faith. I agree on the need of works to, but when you make statements saying we are not saved by faith you are basically discrediting the whole new testement. We are saved and justified by a LOVEING FAITH THAT PRODUCES WORKS, that is the only way we are saved. Again, with faith SHOULD, (I STRESS THE "SHOULD") come love, which produces works, which produces grace. To say one isnt justified through faith is to ignore the whole new testement.
[size=4]
[font="Arial Black"][size=4][font="Arial Black"][font="Arial Black"]ROMANS 10:9 FOR ONE BELIEVES WITH THE HEART AND SO IS JUSTIFIED, AND ONE CONFESSES WITH THE MOUTH AND SO IS SAVED. FOR THE SCRIPTURE SAYS, "NO ONE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL BE PUT TO SHAME."[/font][size=4][/size]



ROMANS 10:12 FOR THERE IS NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN JEW AND GREEK, THE SAME LORD IS LORD OF ALL, ENRICHING ALL WHO CALL UPON HIM. FOR "EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED "



ROMANS 13:8 " OWE NOTHEING TO ANYONE, EXCEPT TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER; FOR THE ONE WHO LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW.




GALATINAS 2:16 " YET WE KNOW THAT A PERSON IS NOT JUSTIFED BY WORKS OF THE LAW BUT THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, EVEN WE HAVE HAVE BELIEVED IN CHRIST JESUS THAT WE MAY BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH IN CHRIST AND NOT BY WORKS OF THE LAW, BECAUSE BY WORKS OF THE LAW NO ONE WILL BE JUSTIFIED.




font="Arial Black"]JUSTIFICICATION BY FAITH
Galatins 3:1 O stupid Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2
I want to learn only this from you: did you receive the Spirit from works of the law, or from faith in what you heard? 3
3
Are you so stupid? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? 4
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Did you experience so many things 5 in vain?--if indeed it was in vain.
5
Does, then, the one who supplies the Spirit to you and works mighty deeds among you do so from works of the law or from faith in what you heard?
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Thus Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 6
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7 Realize then that it is those who have faith who are children of Abraham.
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Scripture, which saw in advance that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, foretold the good news to Abraham, saying, "Through you shall all the nations be blessed."
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Consequently, those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham who had faith.
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8 For all who depend on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not persevere in doing all the things written in the book of the law."
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And that no one is justified before God by the law is clear, for "the one who is righteous by faith will live."
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But the law does not depend on faith; rather, "the one who does these things will live by them."
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Christ ransomed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree,"
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that the blessing of Abraham might be extended to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. [/font][




[font="Arial Black"]Galatians 4:26 FOR THROUGH FAITH YOU ARE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS[/font][size=6][/size]




[font="Arial Black"]GALATIANS 5:5 FOR THROUGH THE SPIRIT, BY FAITH, WE AWAIT THE HOPE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. [/font][/size]



HEWBREWS 11:6 BUT WITHOUT FAITH IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE HIM, FOR ANYONE WHO APPROACHES GOD MUST BELIEVE THAT HE EXISTS AND THAT HE REWARDS THOSE WHO SEEK HIM




CHAPTER 5 FAITH IS VICTORY OVER THE WORLD
5:1 EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST IS BEGOTTEN BY GOD, AND EVERYONE WHO LOVES THE FATHER LOVES ALSO THE ONE BEGOTTEN BY HIM. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD IS THIS, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. AND THE VICTORY THAT CONQUERS THE WORLD IS OUR FAITH[/font][/size]

Edited September 11, 2008 by Guest

[Guest]

And let me add that im not saying faith promices one a free ticket into heaven. The verse where Jesus says " depart from me you never knew me" prooves that. Although it is my belief that this is dircted at people who 1.) did not really believe and did not let jesus take hold of their lives but instead just called out "lord, lord" in vain 2.) people who did believe, but did wicked things and did not walk in love 3.) people who used Jesus and God as a way for ill gains and really never had a true relationship with him

It is imporant to stress how LOVEING, KIND, AND JUST OF A GOD JESUS IS. He will be fair to those who really love him and tried their best to serve him. That is why I think christains are really lucky for purgatory. Becuase we can be purged there and still know we are going to be in heaven forever. But if you dont have faith you are not going to make it to purgatory. Again just like the scriputre said, GOD IS ONLY PLEASED THROUGH FAITH.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Guest

[Guest]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1652969' date='Sep 11 2008, 10:09 AM']The Sacraments are necessary for Salvation, Salvation without the Sacraments can only be thought of as tremendously extraordinary. One can never be assured of Salvation, but one can be sure that it is far far easier for a Catholic to be saved than anyone else.[/quote]


Lets not forget one who is not an ordained catholic can attend a church where sacraments are present. Anyone can go to God for forgiveness of sins if they repent with a sincere heart that wants to change. As a catholic when I sin mortally, I go to a priest, but still, God will not ignore a sinner who repents on his knees in his closet with a sincere heart that wants to change.

You do not have to be at a catholic mass to take communion and eat christ's body and drink his blood. As a catholic I choose to do this at mass but holy mass is not the only place this can happen.

To say that other churches do not offer sacraments for salvation I think is a bit arrogant ? I do agree that the catholic church is your best bet, but to swear off all the other churches as being sacramentless ?? I dont know about that.....

Edited September 11, 2008 by Guest

[StColette]

I don't even know where to begin. Other than to quote this [quote]which produces works, which produces grace[/quote] and say that works do not produce grace. I will go more in depth with this when I have a little more time. Patience please

[Guest]

[quote name='StColette' post='1653233' date='Sep 11 2008, 03:32 PM']I don't even know where to begin. Other than to quote this and say that works do not produce grace. I will go more in depth with this when I have a little more time. Patience please [/quote]


hey stcolette ! God bless ya

I'll be waiting, being patient is one thing i've become good at....
And you didnt quote everything I said or put in contex, I said that "We are saved and justified by a LOVEING FAITH THAT PRODUCES WORKS, that is the only way we are saved. Again, with faith SHOULD, (I STRESS THE "SHOULD") come love, which produces works, which produces grace....Again this was in reply to Don John saying that faith doest save us.

What i was saying was that without faith you cannot have works that are pleasing to God, and without works how can you achieve grace ??
Faith without works is dead so surely no grace comes from haveing faith without any works...
So it would be my understanding that Gods Grace comes from haveing faith rooted in love that is alive through good works...

I think the most important thing you need to address is the fact that don john says that faith does not save, and if this is what we catholics believe, tell me how in the heck that can line up with the new testement. I listed many scriptures that make it a point to state the contrary...

Edited September 11, 2008 by Guest

[StColette]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1653238' date='Sep 11 2008, 03:44 PM']hey stcolette ! God bless ya

I'll be waiting, being patient is one thing i've become good at....
First off you didnt quote everything I said, I said that " a loveing faith produces works which then produces grace...
what i was saying was that without faith you cannot have works that are pleasing to God, and without works how can you achieve grace ??
faith without works is dead so surely no grace comes from haveing faith without works...
so it would be my guess that graces comes from haveing faith that is alive through good works...[/quote]

I believe the problem with the wording your using is that you are making grace dependent upon works, which is not the case. Grace or graces are gifts that are bestowed upon us by God by His own accord. Doing good works does not necessarily mean you will be granted graces for them. That would almost become like a trading system, which isn't how grace works. We don't receive grace because we do something we receive grace only because of the mercy of God. We are not worthy to receive the many graces that God gives us, no matter how many good works we do. Graces are not something that are earned or that can be earned rather they are supernatural gifts from the Father. We have no right to expect them or to demand them just because we do a work of faith. It is only out of God's love, generosity, and mercy that we are given them.

As for the faith, works, grace part. Let me see if I can explain it a simply without getting overly complex. Justification/Sanctification can be kinda confusing

Grace is the initial cause for our having faith. As CCC 1996 says, "[b]Our justification comes from the grace of God[/b]. Grace is favor,[b] the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.[/b]" 46


46 Cf Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4.

Because of our free will we have the freedom to accept this grace from God and let it lead us to having faith in Him. We do not come to faith on our own accord. It is only through the merits of Christ on the Cross that we are given the grace to believe. We do not merit grace or faith for ourselves. God out of His loving, kindness, bestows upon us the grace to believe. It is up to us to take that grace and turn away from sin and believe in God through the faith of Jesus Christ.

That's about as simple as I can put it. I would recommend reading this section of the Catechism. [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm[/url] Most of the citations that it will give will be Scripture references or references to Councils which referenced Scripture verses. I think you might find this section very helpful in understanding what the Church teaches about grace, faith, and works. Have a good read over that section of the Catechism. Take your time and look up the Scripture passages that it cites. I believe it will be helpful to you.

God Bless,
Jennie

[Guest]

[quote name='StColette' post='1653252' date='Sep 11 2008, 03:10 PM']I believe the problem with the wording your using is that you are making grace dependent upon works, which is not the case. Grace or graces are gifts that are bestowed upon us by God by His own accord. Doing good works does not necessarily mean you will be granted graces for them. That would almost become like a trading system, which isn't how grace works. We don't receive grace because we do something we receive grace only because of the mercy of God. We are not worthy to receive the many graces that God gives us, no matter how many good works we do. Graces are not something that are earned or that can be earned rather they are supernatural gifts from the Father. We have no right to expect them or to demand them just because we do a work of faith. It is only out of God's love, generosity, and mercy that we are given them.

As for the faith, works, grace part. Let me see if I can explain it a simply without getting overly complex. Justification/Sanctification can be kinda confusing

Grace is the initial cause for our having faith. As CCC 1996 says, "[b]Our justification comes from the grace of God[/b]. Grace is favor,[b] the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.[/b]" 46


46 Cf Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4.

Because of our free will we have the freedom to accept this grace from God and let it lead us to having faith in Him. We do not come to faith on our own accord. It is only through the merits of Christ on the Cross that we are given the grace to believe. We do not merit grace or faith for ourselves. God out of His loving, kindness, bestows upon us the grace to believe. It is up to us to take that grace and turn away from sin and believe in God through the faith of Jesus Christ.

That's about as simple as I can put it. I would recommend reading this section of the Catechism. [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm[/url] Most of the citations that it will give will be Scripture references or references to Councils which referenced Scripture verses. I think you might find this section very helpful in understanding what the Church teaches about grace, faith, and works. Have a good read over that section of the Catechism. Take your time and look up the Scripture passages that it cites. I believe it will be helpful to you.

God Bless,
Jennie[/quote]

Ok I think I get what you are saying and im gonna take a look at this. Thank you for explaining. Godbless.

p.s. and i agree with what you are saying about no works being able to save us. i have always argued and said this but am always hit with the "faith is dead without works arguement" so thats why i was saying that faith alive through good works allows grace to be possible, since faith without works is dead.

I do now see what you are saying though, how grace provides us the ability to be able to have faith and produce good work....thanks

Edited September 11, 2008 by Guest

[StColette]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1653260' date='Sep 11 2008, 04:20 PM']Ok I think I get what you are saying and im gonna take a look at this. Thank you for explaining. Godbless.

p.s. and i agree with what you are saying about no works being able to save us. i have always argued and said this but am always hit with the "faith is dead without works arguement" so thats why i was saying that faith alive through good works allows grace to be possible, since faith without works is dead.

I do now see what you are saying though, how grace provides us the ability to be able to have faith and produce good work....thanks[/quote]

yw enjoy the read and if you have any questions or aren't understanding something let us know

[Guest]

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

thank you again for this, this part is really helpfull and i see how my wording is wrong now, Godbless.

[Guest]

[quote name='StColette' post='1653262' date='Sep 11 2008, 03:25 PM']yw enjoy the read and if you have any questions or aren't understanding something let us know [/quote]


but it is still by faith that makes grace possible right ? without faith no grace is possible ? and if one has faith that grace extends to all christians who have faith as long as they respond to christ right ?

Edited September 11, 2008 by Guest