Lutheran And Non Demonintaional Christians Will Acheive Salvation

[pan!c139]

[Guest]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1652712' date='Sep 10 2008, 08:58 PM']we'll just have to agree to disagree unfortunately [/quote]

wether or not they are saved is up for debate (which we shouldnt do) but they do deserve the right to be called christians and be shown respect and affection.

i dont like the once saved always saved either. although i do believe with faith you probally will be saved although you might have a miserable time in purgatory for a zillion years.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Guest

[pan!c139]

Definitely. I have a lot of friends who are Christian. They are our separated bretheren.

[Nihil Obstat]

Um... I have to admit, reading this thread and the debate on the other one, I feel very apprehensive and tentative about giving my own understanding here, but I feel drawn to try to get my point across.
The way I interpret the Church teaching on salvation outside the Church is this:

All salvation comes through the Church. Fact. It's been said multiple times.
The way I understand, however, this is referring not strictly to the Church as an earthly institution. All salvation comes through the Church as a universal, established-by-God community. We can see the Church as wider than a human perspective.
Therefore we can legitimately believe, as the CCC tells us, that those who do not identify as Catholic can be salved.
So the question that Don John brought up of whether this is even possible today... I think it is.
From what I read of Don John's comments (and my deepest apologies if I'm putting words into your mouth) is that those who have heard of the Church but do not join no longer have invincible ignorance, and are therefore rejecting the Church, excluding themselves from salvation.
I disagree with this though, sort of. The way I see it, it rests not in knowledge, but understanding, which we all know is a pretty big distinction.
A lot of people are brought up Protestant, or Jewish and what have you, and they will be raised being told constantly that their religion is correct and Catholicism is not. Personally, I don't blame them for not coming to the Church just from hearing a bit about it. The trick is in understanding it.
When you actually understand where the Catholic Church comes from, it's pretty hard to call it false. Very very hard, in my opinion.

My two cents.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1652714' date='Sep 10 2008, 10:00 PM']I just went to your profile and seen you're 16. You must really be on fire for God. If you dont mind me asking how did you come to your cathlolic faith with haveing two parents that are protestants? Thats pretty cool. [/quote]
Thanks DB.
It was a matter of God revealing me the Truth and Beauty of His Church through various people and situations, including a Catholic grandmother, a group of amazing sisters, a great parish community, and for the first time, being able to see Christ and His love reflected in others - something that was only revealed to me once I began my two-year journey home. It was quite the journey (and it didn't come easily - my mother butted heads so often that our skulls began to fuse ), but it's certainly a tale for another thread.

[Guest]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1652742' date='Sep 10 2008, 10:15 PM']Um... I have to admit, reading this thread and the debate on the other one, I feel very apprehensive and tentative about giving my own understanding here, but I feel drawn to try to get my point across.
The way I interpret the Church teaching on salvation outside the Church is this:

All salvation comes through the Church. Fact. It's been said multiple times.
The way I understand, however, this is referring not strictly to the Church as an earthly institution. All salvation comes through the Church as a universal, established-by-God community. We can see the Church as wider than a human perspective.
Therefore we can legitimately believe, as the CCC tells us, that those who do not identify as Catholic can be salved.
So the question that Don John brought up of whether this is even possible today... I think it is.
From what I read of Don John's comments (and my deepest apologies if I'm putting words into your mouth) is that those who have heard of the Church but do not join no longer have invincible ignorance, and are therefore rejecting the Church, excluding themselves from salvation.
I disagree with this though, sort of. The way I see it, it rests not in knowledge, but understanding, which we all know is a pretty big distinction.
A lot of people are brought up Protestant, or Jewish and what have you, and they will be raised being told constantly that their religion is correct and Catholicism is not. Personally, I don't blame them for not coming to the Church just from hearing a bit about it. The trick is in understanding it.
When you actually understand where the Catholic Church comes from, it's pretty hard to call it false. Very very hard, in my opinion.

My two cents. [/quote]

Veryyyyyyyyyy hard. I tried for awhile in my day to day life and even on here. Dust gave me a i dont rep the pope title. I had a very hard time accepting that I would not be able to find salvation outside of the catholic church. And now through phatmass and the holy spirt im sold on the authenticity of the catholic church and am also responsible in a more real way then I ever was. I am now aware of mortal sin and what it can do to my spirtual life.

I appreciate what you say about knowledge and understanding being 2 very different things. I apprecaite Lousiville Fan for posting the document I have pasted on this thread in the other thread in open mic. Because it does tell us that our seperated brothers and sisters are indeed brothers and sisters in Christ and they deserve our love and respet. God is good and just. How lucky humans are for that.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Guest

[Guest]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1652746' date='Sep 10 2008, 10:18 PM']Thanks DB.
It was a matter of God revealing me the Truth and Beauty of His Church through various people and situations, including a Catholic grandmother, a group of amazing sisters, a great parish community, and for the first time, being able to see Christ and His love reflected in others - something that was only revealed to me once I began my two-year journey home. It was quite the journey (and it didn't come easily - my mother butted heads so often that our skulls began to fuse ), but it's certainly a tale for another thread.[/quote]

let me know when you post it cause im dieing to read it.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1652752' date='Sep 10 2008, 09:21 PM']Veryyyyyyyyyy hard. I tried for awhile in my day to day life and even on here. Dust gave me a i dont rep the pope title. I had a very hard time accepting that I would not be able to find salvation outside of the catholic church. And now through phatmass and the holy spirt im sold on the authenticity of the catholic church and am also responsible in a more real way then I ever was. I am now aware of mortal sin and what it can do to my spirtual life.

I appreciate what you say about knowledge and understanding being 2 very different things. I apprecaite Lousiville Fan for posting the document I have pasted on this thread in the other thread in open mic. Because it does tell us that our seperated brothers and sisters are indeed brothers and sisters in Christ and they deserve our love and respet. God is good and just. How lucky humans are for that.[/quote]
Yes.
I've come to the sincere belief lately that if one is willing to believe, and if one [b]truly[/b] understands the motivations and meanings and doctrines of the Church, that they will see that it is the answer, that it is truly God's Church. Starting as simply as proving the founding of the Church, which as you all know is pretty clear, it just... flows into place. The beauty and grandeur is aw-inspiring. Enormous diversity within the Church, in terms of race and tradition... such understanding...

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1652715' date='Sep 10 2008, 11:01 PM']lol i guess ??
so you have no hope for them ??[/quote]

Perhaps he means he has hope but not confidence?

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1652718' date='Sep 10 2008, 11:03 PM']Are they baptised ??
Because if they are i really dont see how you can make a case.

All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church." -CCC, paragraph 818[/quote]

They deserve to be called Christians, yes, but we also have to remember that that does not guarantee salvation. I hope that they do achieve it, but there is no way we can know for certain.

When we discuss understanding, knowledge, and belief regarding our separated brethren I think we must also recognize that there are a couple types of ignorance that can come into play: willful (vincible) and invincible. If they are willfully ignorant then the weight of burden rests upon their shoulders. If they aren't being willfully ignorant then I think that there is indeed good hope for their salvation. How often we encounter invincible ignorance versus vincible is a whole different argument.... That I cannot say. I know there are people out there who are led one way their whole lives and sincerely believe Catholics are all the bad things people say about us, but I think at least as often if not more so there are those who have heard the Truth and choose to dismiss the Church. They don't want to change so they turn their backs (I've seen it happen). Our tendency to selfishness is a powerful vice and part of why so many turn away; look at all the "Catholics" who are in favor of abortion and contraceptives.

ETA: my point in composing this post is to point out that the thread title isn't entirely accurate. We cannot say that anyone [b]will[/b] achieve salvation. We can only hope that they [b]might[/b] achieve it. The CCC quote about non-Catholic Christians being our brothers and sisters in Christ is a good one, but it should not be confused or misinterpreted to say that they are going to heaven with certainty.

[Guest]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1652787' date='Sep 10 2008, 11:08 PM']Perhaps he means he has hope but not confidence?



They deserve to be called Christians, yes, but we also have to remember that that does not guarantee salvation. I hope that they do achieve it, but there is no way we can know for certain.

When we discuss understanding, knowledge, and belief regarding our separated brethren I think we must also recognize that there are a couple types of ignorance that can come into play: willful (vincible) and invincible. If they are willfully ignorant then the weight of burden rests upon their shoulders. If they aren't being willfully ignorant then I think that there is indeed good hope for their salvation. How often we encounter invincible ignorance versus vincible is a whole different argument.... That I cannot say. I know there are people out there who are led one way their whole lives and sincerely believe Catholics are all the bad things people say about us, but I think at least as often if not more so there are those who have heard the Truth and choose to dismiss the Church. They don't want to change so they turn their backs (I've seen it happen). Our tendency to selfishness is a powerful vice and part of why so many turn away; look at all the "Catholics" who are in favor of abortion and contraceptives.

ETA: my point in composing this post is to point out that the thread title isn't entirely accurate. We cannot say that anyone [b]will[/b] achieve salvation. We can only hope that they [b]might[/b] achieve it. The CCC quote about non-Catholic Christians being our brothers and sisters in Christ is a good one, but it should not be confused or misinterpreted to say that they are going to heaven with certainty.[/quote]

Agreed, thats why I said "as long as they stay in a loveing, repentent, faithfull relationship with Christ and follow him to the best of their ability."

No one knows anyones fate. But they do deserve the same hope just as catholics do. They should not be assumed unrepentent or unworthy.

Because if were assuming about a professing christian then were judgeing which means we are going to be judged also.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Guest

[Don John of Austria]

Our seperated Bretheren who were born and raised into the great lie lof Protestantism and who baptise ( in the name of the Trinity, this woudl not technically include some of the penecostals) deserve to be named Christian and treated with love and Charity. THis does NOT change the fact that outside the Church there can be no Salvation, or that the only way to saved if not formally a member of the Church is to be invincibly ignorant of the necessity. It is very fashionable nowto take a big tent approach and assume that that means virtually everyone who is not a Catholic, but that is not the traditional view of the Church on the matter. It should be enough to say that it is possible that they be saved and that we [i]hope[/i] that they will be saved. But to say that they [i]will [/i]be saved... that is a heretical doctrine and should not be spoken. No one can be assured of salvation.

I think----- do I need to repeat that--- [b][i]I THINK [/i][/b]that it is a very dangerous to act as if it is okay for people to belong to Protestant or Non-denominational churches ( just as a side note the Catholic Church is not a denomination), it is not okay, there is only one sure instrument of salvation, and that is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and that Church has very definable borders. It is immoral to say that it anyone outside of the Church is likely to be saved, it diminishes the importance of evangilization, which Christ commanded us to do , while He was Incarnate on the Earth.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1652806' date='Sep 10 2008, 11:34 PM']Agreed, thats why I said "as long as they stay in a loveing, repentent, faithfull relationship with Christ and follow him to the best of their ability."

No one knows anyones fate. But they do deserve the same hope just as catholics do. They should not be assumed unrepentent or unworthy.

Because if were assuming about a professing christian then were judgeing which means we are going to be judged also.[/quote]


We will all be judged, twice.

[Guest]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1652813' date='Sep 10 2008, 10:40 PM']Our seperated Bretheren who were born and raised into the great lie lof Protestantism and who baptise ( in the name of the Trinity, this woudl not technically include some of the penecostals) deserve to be named Christian and treated with love and Charity. THis does NOT change the fact that outside the Church there can be no Salvation, or that the only way to saved if not formally a member of the Church is to be invincibly ignorant of the necessity. It is very fashionable nowto take a big tent approach and assume that that means virtually everyone who is not a Catholic, but that is not the traditional view of the Church on the matter. It should be enough to say that it is possible that they be saved and that we [i]hope[/i] that they will be saved. But to say that they [i]will [/i]be saved... that is a heretical doctrine and should not be spoken. No one can be assured of salvation.

I think----- do I need to repeat that--- [b][i]I THINK [/i][/b]that it is a very dangerous to act as if it is okay for people to belong to Protestant or Non-denominational churches ( just as a side note the Catholic Church is not a denomination), it is not okay, there is only one sure instrument of salvation, and that is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and that Church has very definable borders. It is immoral to say that it anyone outside of the Church is likely to be saved, it diminishes the importance of evangilization, which Christ commanded us to do , while He was Incarnate on the Earth.[/quote]

I agree with everying you just said (I bet you care )
The title of this thead was meant to be extreme.
Im glad that you say that there is hope.
Thats all anyone can wish for, when it comes to their friends and family.
I also agree you should never act like its ok to disregard the church and we should always try to convert those people who dont call themselves catholicis in love.
I learned some stuff from you on the thread that got closed, and I planned on replying back but got there to late. Thanks for takeing the time.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Guest

[Guest]

im talking about judgeing their actions and if there "really" christains or not.
like when jesus said "judge not unless you be judged. "
i think thats what he said it least.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Guest

[Guest]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1652787' date='Sep 10 2008, 10:08 PM']They deserve to be called Christians, yes, but we also have to remember that that does not guarantee salvation. I hope that they do achieve it, but there is no way we can know for certain.[/quote]

Yep just like catholics arent guarnteed salvation either. Its only through faith that we acheive salvation. You can go to everysingle mass and take communion everyday but if you dont have faith you dont have salvation. Granted it would be pretty odd for this example to play out but you get what im saying. Being catholic and going to church every week doesnt assure salvation either. God is only pleased through faith and love.