Freaky Mass!

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
i'm sorry, i didn't mean to be so harsh. i agree that often phatmass is somewhere to vent.

but

if you do nothing but come here and vent, are you part of a solution, or part of the problem? (not that i'm saying the OP doesn't do anything, i'm saying to everyone).

God bless

[Ash Wednesday]

I know that things often go on in mass that are frustrating or irritating -- but as a general observation here -- try not to let it distract you too much from following along, focusing on the heart of the matter, and celebrating the mass, even if there isn't much you can do about the situation. I have known of people that eventually flat out left the church because they got so caught up noticing liturgical problems. We'll always notice things like this and I'm glad that the pope and other authorities are changing some things, but in the meantime, I think we still have to remember to look at the big picture.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1650670' date='Sep 8 2008, 01:10 PM']How was the homily? Anything you could take home to chew on or something new you learned?

What happens after Mass? Do most people pretty much walk away without conversing with anyone they just shared this experience with?

Just curious... seems these needs are often overlooked at parishes known for excellent liturgies.[/quote]
Those needs aren't overlooked here. I think when God is placed first and foremost for any parish, everything falls into proper place. Even in this very large parish. This parish is the seat of the Bishop of Austin.

As for the Mass, the homily was pretty awesome! Especially since the Gospel this Sunday was my favorite! (About the two greatest Commandments!) The priest prints out an outline of his homily, which gets passed out with the Missals. And since I am a Dominican, there are always new things to learn about my Faith...for me, the Church is always "ever ancient, ever new." Wouldn't be a good Dominican if I didn't find something "to chew on."

The new rectors are all in their 30's-40's and they ALL want to learn to celebrate the extraordinary form. (I'm really really excited for this parish! I can only go once in a while because it is very far from my town.)

People stay very quiet and they respect others, so of course, no one talks to each other in the Presence of God. There aren't any loud conversations. This group tends to realize how very RUDE that would be, to make noise while others are praying. Even the young children know better than to do this. They are the most well-behaved and prayerful kids I have ever witnessed at Mass. Before, during and after this Mass, any conversing going on is only between you and God.

Once outside, the conversations start. It's pretty cool, because the entrance has several steps, and we all meet on these steps and on the sidewalk outside this gothic-style Cathedral. You can see little kids conversing with each other and playing on the steps. (They are soo cute.) I've met many wonderful people and am close to several families. There are several young families.

It's beautiful! I love it!

GOD IS GOOD!

[Saint Therese]

I really thought everyone here would be more supportive.


The only reason I brought it up, or rather, the reason it bothers me so much is that I KNOW Holy Mass is so beautiful, in and of itself that the liturgy doesn't need to be changed to become more "meaningful". And I BELIEVE that Jesus is really present there, in the Eucharist and the Mass, and it saddens me to see irreverence to Him, because He deserves total reverence, love and devotion. And the way we celebrate the Liturgy means something- our actions have meaning, and when we do crazy things at Mass it ussuallly means that we don't understand or believe that Jesus is present, or, even sadder, that maybe we don't care.
And, knowing that the Truth is not a some THING, but a somebody- Jesus, I know that the Truth is important.
And I don't think its wrong to say that.
And I've already mentioned that my usual attitude is overlooking things that I know maybe aren't 100% in agreement with the Church's norms and guidelines but really aren't an occasion for sacrilege or irreverence.
But there is something seriously WRONG when we think its okay to put Jesus in a glass bowl.

Edited September 9, 2008 by Saint Therese

[melporcristo]

[quote name='princessgianna' post='1650012' date='Sep 7 2008, 12:55 PM']me too! 3:00pm is the Latin mass
noon is the Life teen
On easter the Latin Mass was on noon
it said so in the bulliten
people must not read those though
the church was full at the beginning
my bro who was a Latin mass server said that the faces on people' s face was priceless
when communion time came nearly 1\2 were gone![/quote]


JMJ

Sorry, this is sad to me.
I go to a Latin Mass as often as I can, don't get me wrong. but I also hope for the day to come when someone who is Latin Rite can be at peace with going to a Life Teen mass and a young person can be at peace at going to a Latin Rite Mass.

The Mass is the Mass. Sometimes I feel like we get too picky.

[melporcristo]

[quote name='Domine ut Videam' post='1650225' date='Sep 7 2008, 04:47 PM']I wouldn't necessary call that a "Freaky Mass" perhaps because my parish at home is quite similar. I used to be upset by it, but now just try to focus on the fact that a miracle is happening. Because being upset by something that can cause such a disturbance and really distract from the true focus of why are worshipping, in my own parish just really isn't worth it.[/quote]

What she said.

Amen sister.

[Saint Therese]

So what you're saying is that we should become de sensitized to this stuff the point where we don't notice it?

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1651047' date='Sep 8 2008, 11:59 PM']I really thought everyone here would be more supportive.
[/quote]

I think perhaps a lot of the reactions are a result of this being a very common subject that has been brought up here on Phatmass for years. I have no problem with this being a place for people to rant or a place to get advice to help on this problem. However this is one of those things that may evoke a "here we go again" response from people.

I would say a few years ago, if someone posted this, I think the response would have been a lot different, and more along the lines of a lot mutual agreement and ranting.

Over time the response to the subject has evolved from "I know, right? Let me tell you about my parish..." to "I'm so sorry to hear this, talk to your priest and bishop" to "what else is new? Talk to your priest and bishop."

So don't worry... you have our support. I think it's just that it's been a common subject over the years, though certainly of no less importance than before.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1651159' date='Sep 9 2008, 02:06 AM']So what you're saying is that we should become de sensitized to this stuff the point where we don't notice it?[/quote]

As I see it -- bring it up with the priest or bishop if it's really troubling you and see if something can be done -- I think a lot of advice is in case there isn't a lot you can do or if you come upon this stuff unexpectedly.

I grew up in Washington state -- they have some real flaky things going on there in the Seattle area and it's difficult to stem the tide of silliness so I had to learn to cope and see it in the big picture as best I can. In fact I'm suddenly remembering the time a priest at my local parish brought in a mime (you know, one of those acting clowns) for the sermon and some woman got up and walked out. Back then I didn't know what that was all about. Now I do.

(I'm in England now, and spoiled by access to some stunning churches and traditional liturgies....but I know the glass bowl quite well.)

[StColette]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1651159' date='Sep 9 2008, 02:06 AM']So what you're saying is that we should become de sensitized to this stuff the point where we don't notice it?[/quote]

I don't believe that is what they are saying. I believe there is a time to pick your battles and there is a time not to. Two of the liturgical abuses you listed, holding hands during the Our Father and using glass vessels, are very different from one another. Now, while holding hands during the Our Father is not permissible it is a lesser degree of abuse than the use of glass vessels. The use of glass vessels can directly harm the Mass because well we just don't put Jesus in a glass dish. The holding of hands doesn't have a direct effect upon any part of the Mass, and especially not on the Eucharist. There are some battles you should pick and others you should be careful to address. I would definitely address abuses surrounding the Eucharist before the issue about holding hands during the Our Father.

I believe, ultimately, what the others are trying to explain is that you should not look for abuses just to look for them. If you notice them then you notice them, but you should not bring yourself to the level of going over every single detail of the Mass with a fine tooth comb. Because if you did act this way then your concentration would definitely not be on what is actually taking place there at the Mass but you would simply be concentrating on the rubrics. And the Mass is more than its rubrics.

[Proud2BCatholic139]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1650717' date='Sep 8 2008, 03:03 PM']+J.M.J.+
i'm sorry, i didn't mean to be so harsh. i agree that often phatmass is somewhere to vent.

but

if you do nothing but come here and vent, are you part of a solution, or part of the problem? (not that i'm saying the OP doesn't do anything, i'm saying to everyone).

God bless [/quote]

That's what I meant by "complaining"

[franciscan13]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1649997' date='Sep 7 2008, 02:44 PM']Yes, I guess that's true. Once I was visiting another parish and had the misofortune to attend the Life Teen Mass. I seriously questioned whether or not I had entered some other denomination's church by mistake. [/quote]

While I agree that it is a horrible thing that there are so many abuses in our churches everywhere, and I love the Latin mass as much as the next guy. Life Teen has done wonderful things for young people today. I admitt some churches go too far and there are abuses, but I have met and worked with many teens who have come away from a Life Teen mass with more appriciation for Holy Mass. The thing is is that they found a way to draw the teens in, then teach true solid authentic Catholicism. Life Teen calls itself " A Eucharistic centered comprehensive Catholic youth ministry approch" and I believe that when done right (and theres the key words) Life Teen bears good fruit. Of course its not for everyone. All this being said, when there are abuses, and there will be, it is our duty to point them out to the priests and bishops in charge. Anyway theres my two cents, God Bless

Edited September 9, 2008 by franciscan13

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1650782' date='Sep 8 2008, 05:45 PM']Those needs aren't overlooked here. I think when God is placed first and foremost for any parish, everything falls into proper place. Even in this very large parish. This parish is the seat of the Bishop of Austin.[/quote]

So it's the cathedral, right?

I disagree that effective parish ministry is as simple as putting God first. Obviously, every parish or church community seeks to do that, but people still have to show up and get their hands dirty doing actual work. At the vast majority of parishes in Louisville (whether traditional or liberal, diocesan or religious order), it's very easy for a stranger to walk in, worship at Mass, and walk right back out without being offered any opportunity to get connected or more involved with parish life.

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1650782' date='Sep 8 2008, 05:45 PM']As for the Mass, the homily was pretty awesome! Especially since the Gospel this Sunday was my favorite! (About the two greatest Commandments!) The priest prints out an outline of his homily, which gets passed out with the Missals. And since I am a Dominican, there are always new things to learn about my Faith...for me, the Church is always "ever ancient, ever new." Wouldn't be a good Dominican if I didn't find something "to chew on."[/quote]

That's encouraging... some priests are finally catching on that people these days won't remember jack if it's not written down somewhere I've never been to a parish that provided notes on the homily. I rarely hear a homily that's worth providing notes for, so maybe the two go hand in hand. But, I don't blame the priests. Effective preaching simply hasn't been a priority for seminaries or lay Catholics for so many generations in America. These silly Catholics think good preaching is a "Protestant" thing, but breaking open the Word [i]is[/i] Catholicism. The priest literally breaks open the Word before the Agnus Dei (when he splits the host in two), and he should break open the Word during his homily.

We also have a nearby Dominican parish, but it surprises me by not being much better in this respect. You know, I lived in the same neighborhood as that parish for [i]five years[/i] while in college and never knew it existed! Granted, I wasn't Catholic, but plenty of other churches that I never attended made their presence known through campus ministry or other community outreach. I guess local Catholic parishes feel like they shouldn't cross over into the Newman Center's "territory," but that lackadaisical "let someone else do it" attitude opens the doors wide open for too many people to silently leave the Church.

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1650782' date='Sep 8 2008, 05:45 PM']People stay very quiet and they respect others, so of course, no one talks to each other in the Presence of God. There aren't any loud conversations. This group tends to realize how very RUDE that would be, to make noise while others are praying. Even the young children know better than to do this. They are the most well-behaved and prayerful kids I have ever witnessed at Mass. Before, during and after this Mass, any conversing going on is only between you and God.[/quote]

Are you saying there is no conversing among people, only between you and God? I'm not sure if I would like that or not... it sounds very formal and uptight. What I don't like about most "traditional" style parishes is the "show up, pray, and leave" way of doing things. There is rarely any social outlet provided, so if you don't know many people, you easily slip through the cracks.

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1650782' date='Sep 8 2008, 05:45 PM']Once outside, the conversations start. It's pretty cool, because the entrance has several steps, and we all meet on these steps and on the sidewalk outside this gothic-style Cathedral. You can see little kids conversing with each other and playing on the steps. (They are soo cute.) I've met many wonderful people and am close to several families. There are several young families.[/quote]

Well, that's good for those who already have friends and family there, but how do new people get involved? How are they made to feel welcome, or to know what's going on during Mass or what they're supposed to do if they aren't Catholic? There needs to be an intentional effort by the parish to ensure people are invited into the community in some way (besides just RCIA). If no effort is made, a lot of people walk in and walk right back out with hardly more than a polite "hello" from anybody.

Of course, I'm not saying your parish isn't doing those things, but a little more needs to be done than relying on happenstance socializing out on the front steps.

Edited September 9, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[StColette]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1651417' date='Sep 9 2008, 11:44 AM']Are you saying there is no conversing among people, only between you and God? I'm not sure if I would like that or not... it sounds very formal and uptight. What I don't like about most "traditional" style parishes is the "show up, pray, and leave" way of doing things. There is rarely any social outlet provided, so if you don't know many people, you easily slip through the cracks.[/quote]

I believe what she is meaning by people don't talk and are being respectful of others is that it is quiet before and after Mass as it should be. The Church, sanctuary, isn't a place to catch up on all the latest gab, it is a place of prayer. It's very distracting for those who pray before or after Mass to hear people talking while they are still inside the Church. I don't think it has anything to do with "traditional" style parishes. People should understand that when they come inside the Church they are coming into the presence of God, and that they should be mindful of that. Again, it's not a place to catch up on the latest news or "gossip" it's a place of prayer. If you want to talk you can go outside, in another building, into the Narthex, or somewhere else that is suitable.

[quote]Well, that's good for those who already have friends and family there, but how do new people get involved? How are they made to feel welcome, or to know what's going on during Mass or what they're supposed to do if they aren't Catholic? There needs to be an intentional effort by the parish to ensure people are invited into the community in some way (besides just RCIA). If no effort is made, a lot of people walk in and walk right back out with hardly more than a polite "hello" from anybody.[/quote]

Most parishes welcome visitors at the beginning of Mass, and make them stand up and be recognized. Parishioners watching to see who the visitors are and can speak with them after Mass and welcome them more specifically in. But once again, the Sanctuary is not a place for gabbing, even to visitors. I say this because most conversations that take place in the Church aren't necessary and can wait until after Mass. We must remain mindful that the Church is a place of prayer, where God is present, and He deserve our reverence, and not our gabbing.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='StColette' post='1651431' date='Sep 9 2008, 12:59 PM']I believe what she is meaning by people don't talk and are being respectful of others is that it is quiet before and after Mass as it should be.[/quote]

Well, what dominicansoul said is "any conversing going on is only between you and God." I'm not sure how literally he meant that. I've given a polite greeting to some people in traditional style parishes only be rebuffed with a "How do you recognize my presence while we are in Church!" kind of look. That's why I usually avoid those kinds of parishes.

[quote name='StColette' post='1651431' date='Sep 9 2008, 12:59 PM']Most parishes welcome visitors at the beginning of Mass, and make them stand up and be recognized. Parishioners watching to see who the visitors are and can speak with them after Mass and welcome them more specifically in. But once again, the Sanctuary is not a place for gabbing, even to visitors. I say this because most conversations that take place in the Church aren't necessary and can wait until after Mass. We must remain mindful that the Church is a place of prayer, where God is present, and He deserve our reverence, and not our gabbing.[/quote]

I've only been to one parish that did this, but it was the end of Mass, and it was pretty obvious we were visitors because it was predominantly African-American. That said, asking visitors to stand up and be recognized is about the worst way to help them feel welcome. Few people like standing up in front of crowds, so why ask a visitor to do that? Fact is, when an announcement like that is made, a good number of visitors remain seated.

That said, there is obviously no need to carry on conversations in church. A comfortable and inviting space needs to be provided elsewhere, either in the narthax, or someplace easy to find from the front entrance, where people can gather and socialize. This is the ideal place to help visitors find out how they can get connected, and to keep people involved on a continual basis. That cannot be done outside on the front steps and announcements in the bulletin are too easy to ignore. There must be some form of personal interaction outside of the Mass and church.

Jesus didn't sit around and wait for the lost sheep to return; he found the sheep and returned it to the fold. We have a lot of lost sheep who wander in and out of churches every Sunday, yet nothing is done to bring them back into the fold.

Edited September 9, 2008 by LouisvilleFan