Freaky Mass!

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1650428' date='Sep 8 2008, 12:29 AM']Thank you for your advice,and generally that is my attitude. However pointing out things that are clearly against the norms and guidelines of the Church is not "complaining". I think if more of us "complained" we might not be in this position- [color="#FF0000"]having our liturgies hijacked by people with agendas to remake the Church into their own image[/color]. [/quote]

Not sure about that... people don't change their minds when others complain. They just get mad right back at you. Eventually you end up going your separate ways, each further entrenched in their beliefs.

Liturgies are incredibly beautiful when celebrated properly and joyfully. People don't break from the GIRM just to be rebels. Often, they have good reasons, and are usually reacting to "proper" Masses that have a reputation for being dry and uninspiring. Then they go to the opposite extreme because they've made a false correlation. So, the positive route to making a real change happen (not just a superficial change) is finding a way to show the beauty of a properly celebrated liturgy to the priest and other ministers in your parish. This is more difficult and requires more creativity than complaining, and success definitely isn't guaranteed, but probably much more likely than complaining.

After all, soon as you complain, you become the enemy, and who wants to side with their enemy?

Gotta say, attending Spanish Masses at two different parishes the last two Sundays has only heightened my concern for the Catholic faith among Hispanics. I've seen more abuses in those two Masses than I've seen probably all year in English Masses, and throughout Mass reverence is very minimal. It's always difficult in crowded conditions with many children around, but I saw many things that no pastor should tolerate (like a teenage male EM offering Communion wearing a t-shirt). The one interesting thing is the Spanish translation already includes some of the changes that are coming in English, such as "my fault, my fault, my greatest fault" and they say "and with your spirit" instead of "and also with you." The words in Spanish almost exactly match the Latin. Obviously, more accurate translations to not equate to greater reverence. Go figure.

[Saint Therese]

I respectfully disagree.

[doe-jo]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1649908' date='Sep 7 2008, 10:53 AM']I am on vacation and I went to Mass this morning with my brother in law. It was horrible.
I mean, don't get me wrong, holy Mass is always HOLY, but there lots of abuses.
It was going okay until just after the liturgy of the Word. I seriously had to ask myself if I had somehow missed the rest of Mass because they had some lady come up and read the announcements and Father read a few things and told some jokes. Seriously. Then after that the Liturgy of the Eucharist was started, as if it were two totally separate services. And then, get this: there were [b]SEVENTEEN[/b] extra ordinary eucharistic ministers. That's right [b]SEVENTEEN[/b]. It is a large parish, the largest in the city, but not THAT large. I mean I could expect seventeen at maybe a Papal Mass or something. Right? Also, and this is something that bothers me more than anything else: the containers the extraordinary ministers used to distribute Jesus were made out of glass.
It looked like a dish you might have in your kitchen. All the altar severs were girls. The priest in his homily gave several examples of forgiveness: all the examples were of women. I was asking myself, why didn't they give any examples of men? Everyone held hands during the Our Father (except myself).
I'm not someone that feels that a Mass has to be said a certain way just to so that I might be happy. But it bothers me when there are so many things in one Mass that are clearly abuses, especially the glass "containers" (not ciborium). It makes me sad, really.
I forgot to mention that in the church there is no tabernacle; There is an adjacent Blessed Sacrament chapel.
Any thoughts? Please tell me that its not just me! [/quote]
What you just explained happens in the San Bernardino/Los Angeles area (where I live) all the time and I'm not exaggerating.

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='doe-jo' post='1650455' date='Sep 8 2008, 12:06 AM']What you just explained happens in the San Bernardino/Los Angeles area (where I live) all the time and I'm not exaggerating.[/quote]

I really feel for you.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1650454' date='Sep 8 2008, 01:04 AM']I respectfully disagree.[/quote]

Do you have any reasons?

When was the last time you felt compelled to agree with someone when they started complaining to you? We have to put ourselves in the other person's shoes, understand where they are coming from, and what they value in order to be convincing. If what we believe is the Truth, a way can be found to make it appealing to just about anyone except the most stubborn of individuals.

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1650479' date='Sep 8 2008, 12:26 AM']Do you have any reasons?

When was the last time you felt compelled to agree with someone when they started complaining to you? We have to put ourselves in the other person's shoes, understand where they are coming from, and what they value in order to be convincing. If what we believe is the Truth, a way can be found to make it appealing to just about anyone except the most stubborn of individuals.[/quote]
I do have reasons, but I was trying to avoid a debate.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1650486' date='Sep 8 2008, 01:32 AM']I do have reasons, but I was trying to avoid a debate. [/quote]

Then call it a discussion I'm just curious where you're coming from, and if you know how to approach problems like this effectively, then all the better.

FWIW, I do tend to turn most threads I follow into a debate, but usually I'm just trying to think outside the box and learn more.

[Deb]

I just read the girm last week from the USCCB site and then I read the girm as listed on the Vatican's web site. I was specifically looking for something that addressed the acts of the congregation during the Our Father. It does not say mention anything about holding hands or not holding hands during the Our Father. Our church does it, I don't. I discussed it with my priest. He said it was a strong tradition in that parish, that no one was required to hold hands and that I should just pray on it as to what I want to do. I choose not to hold hands.

As for sacred vessels. It states they should be of precious material and non absorbant. It does not say they cannot be glass. It does say one should take care that they are not easily breakable which one could presume would not include glass then. But, again, not banned.

I do not believe that announcements nor jokes belong between the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. I would probably approach the priest and ask him what is up with that. I would not have been happy with that at all. I don't think the Mass you described was full of abuses however. If the consecration was valid, it was a good Mass.

The tabernacle is not required to be in the sanctuary. Ours is not in our church and I have asked that it be returned to the sanctuary in a very detailed survey we were given, with lots of room to comment on every part of the church. We have perpetual adoration though and when Mass goes on, the Blessed Eucharist is returned to the tabernacle which is in the chapel where all daily Masses are celebrated.

I have had problems with little things here and there in my church. However, I go to several other churches for daily Mass or Sunday Mass if I already went to my church on Saturday night and there is not a perfect church out there. I will note that as far as the order of the Mass and the reverence observed in it, we have some incredible churches in the Mpls/St. Paul area. Holy priests and spiritual members.

[StColette]

[quote name='Deb' post='1650584' date='Sep 8 2008, 10:24 AM']I just read the girm last week from the USCCB site and then I read the girm as listed on the
As for sacred vessels. It states they should be of precious material and non absorbant. It does not say they cannot be glass. It does say one should take care that they are not easily breakable which one could presume would not include glass then. But, again, not banned.[/quote]

Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacrament
Redemptionis Sacramentum
On certain matters to be observed or to be avoided
regarding the Most Holy Eucharist

3. Sacred Vessels

[117.] Sacred vessels for containing the Body and Blood of the Lord must be made in strict conformity with the norms of tradition and of the liturgical books.[205]The Bishops’ Conferences have the faculty to decide whether it is appropriate, once their decisions have been given the recognitio by the Apostolic See, for sacred vessels to be made of other solid materials as well. It is strictly required, however, that such materials be truly noble in the common estimation within a given region,[206]so that honour will be given to the Lord by their use, and all risk of diminishing the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharistic species in the eyes of the faithful will be avoided. [b]Reprobated, therefore, is any practice of using for the celebration of Mass common vessels, or others lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit or which are mere containers, as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily. [/b]This norm is to be applied even as regards metals and other materials that easily rust or deteriorate.[207]


The use of glass is strictly prohibited, because a. glass has pores and thus can be absorbent material and b. glass is very breakable.

[quote]I just read the girm last week from the USCCB site and then I read the girm as listed on the Vatican's web site. I was specifically looking for something that addressed the acts of the congregation during the Our Father. It does not say mention anything about holding hands or not holding hands during the Our Father. Our church does it, I don't. I discussed it with my priest. He said it was a strong tradition in that parish, that no one was required to hold hands and that I should just pray on it as to what I want to do. I choose not to hold hands.[/quote]

The GIRM does not mention neither holding hands nor not holding hands because it's a General Instruction not a detail explanation of how each and every part of the rubics should be followed out. The USCCB spoke out against people holding hands during the Our Father many years ago. I know our Bishop prohibited the practice but many of the parishes continued to do so against the requests of the USCCB and their local Bishop.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1650428' date='Sep 7 2008, 09:29 PM']Thank you for your advice,and generally that is my attitude. However pointing out things that are clearly against the norms and guidelines of the Church is not "complaining". I think if more of us "complained" we might not be in this position- [color="#FF0000"]having our liturgies hijacked by people with agendas to remake the Church into their own image[/color].

Besides, the way we celebrate the liturgy shows what we REALLY believe about our faith. ( Not trying to start a debate!!)[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
and what good does it do to complain here? you should respectfully bring it up to the priest of that parish, and then go up higher in the chain (as respect demands and so do the readings from yesterday's Gospel.)

[missionseeker]

[quote name='StColette' post='1650601' date='Sep 8 2008, 11:29 AM']The GIRM does not mention neither holding hands nor not holding hands because it's a General Instruction not a detail explanation of how each and every part of the rubics should be followed out. The USCCB spoke out against people holding hands during the Our Father many years ago. I know our Bishop prohibited the practice but many of the parishes continued to do so against the requests of the USCCB and their local Bishop.[/quote]


my bad...

[StColette]

[quote name='missionseeker' post='1650610' date='Sep 8 2008, 11:46 AM']my bad...[/quote]

lol


A professor/Deacon at FUS explained it to our class the following way. In Mass we are trying to lift ourselves up to the vertical, meaning toward Heaven. We are to not necessarily forget the things of the horizontal, the earthly, but they are to not be our focus during Mass. The holding of hands during the Our Father, while it may help with the sense of community during Mass, it often retracts from the vertical. The Our Father is something that we as individuals and as a community are lifting up to the Heavenly Father. But while we are trying to do this we often get distracted by the people who are holding our hands, reaching for our hands, or ourselves searching around for people to hold our hands. This all takes place during a time when our focus should not be on those who surround us but on our Heavenly Father alone. Does that make any sense?

[dominicansoul]

I went to a High Mass of the Extraordinary Form yesterday at St. Mary's Cathedral in downtown Austin...

...no strange things happened during the Mass...
...no EM's...
...only men up at the Altar, the Priest offering up the Sacrifice on our behalf, along with two deacon-seminarians...
...the Choir in the back of the Church, up in the Choir loft singing the parts of the Mass from the Kyriale...
...no worries about someone rudely grabbing at your hand because you don't want to hold hands during the Pater Noster...
...we knelt to receive the Lord on our tongue as the Priest said "May the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ preserve your soul for eternal life. Amen." (in Latin...)
...I felt as if this world ended and I was already in Heaven...

All you can do is pray, pray for the Church, that people will begin to realize what the Mass truly is, and not something they can add or subtract to. It is not of their own creation.

I would also ask that you pray for parishes throughout the country, that the Latin Mass will return to these parishes as the Pope wishes It to do...that way, you will have a greater choice in what Mass you want to partake in, the kind with all sorts of distractions and abuses, or the kind where you can truly experience your world come to a standstill as Jesus comes to give Himself to you, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity and your total self to Him...

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1650659' date='Sep 8 2008, 02:31 PM']I went to a High Mass of the Extraordinary Form yesterday at St. Mary's Cathedral in downtown Austin...

...no strange things happened during the Mass...
...no EM's...
...only men up at the Altar, the Priest offering up the Sacrifice on our behalf, along with two deacon-seminarians...
...the Choir in the back of the Church, up in the Choir loft singing the parts of the Mass from the Kyriale...
...no worries about someone rudely grabbing at your hand because you don't want to hold hands during the Pater Noster...
...we knelt to receive the Lord on our tongue as the Priest said "May the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ preserve your soul for eternal life. Amen." (in Latin...)
...I felt as if this world ended and I was already in Heaven...[/quote]

How was the homily? Anything you could take home to chew on or something new you learned?

What happens after Mass? Do most people pretty much walk away without conversing with anyone they just shared this experience with?

Just curious... seems these needs are often overlooked at parishes known for excellent liturgies.

[philothea]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1650602' date='Sep 8 2008, 11:33 AM']+J.M.J.+
and what good does it do to complain here? you should respectfully bring it up to the priest of that parish, and then go up higher in the chain (as respect demands and so do the readings from yesterday's Gospel.)[/quote]
I think (er, [i]know[/i]) that it's hard to be the only person who realizes something is wrong.

Since phatmass is, for many, the only place to interact with Catholics who even pay attention to the details of a mass, it could just be a way to vent and get an enlightened, sympathetic ear?