Crackdown On Medjugorje

[Deb]

[quote name='KevinSymonds' post='1649096' date='Sep 6 2008, 11:51 AM']Question:
"[i]The only one who was called to be a religious was Jacov. He attempted to become a priest, but he could not keep up with the education requirements. Not smart enough. Must not have been God's plan for him[/i]."

If one is called to be a religious, that is a call from God. How can it be possible for the call to be issued (supposedly) to Jakov and then suddenly not be God's Will?

"[i]I would love to see one detractor give an explanation of exactly what is happening in Medjugorje[/i]?"

You need go no further than read Bishop Peric's own writings on the subject as he has treated this very question. But remember, he is an "agent of the devil" so no one listens to him. The thing is that there are numerous arguments against Medjugorje. Medjugorje's supporters simply do not listen.

I myself, Deb, have tried charitably to offer you some further considerations over on another thread (I still await your response to my last detailed post on the subject, btw).

In place of actually conversating with me, you indirectly accuse me of "working for the devil" and claim I know nothing of what goes on in Medjugorje. I think I definitively debunked the latter but the former will be a bit harder to root out of your heart.

Anyone who disagrees with your position you brand as "working for the devil." Does it come as a surprise, then, that you have to ask to find an argument against Medjugorje?

You don't listen.

Then you wonder why people question Medjugorje?

Look at its supporters.

-Kevin Symonds[/quote]


No, not everyone who disgrees with me is working for the devil. Those who use innuendo, rumor, false statements and toss around things of which they have no knowledge of, appear to me to be working for someone other than God.
I said it before. I don't care if you believe or anyone believes. It makes no difference to me. I just find lies and rumors distasteful so I state that.
I can't explain to anyone why I believe to someone who does not or who does not want to anymore than I can explain to an atheist how I know God exists. If you have no frame of reference, it can be impossible. Sometimes God just graces a person with knowledge of his truths.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Deb' post='1650600' date='Sep 8 2008, 12:27 PM']Okay. Maybe God did not "call" Jacov to become a priest. I guess it was what Jacov wanted and not God's will. The point was that Jacov journeyed on that path and was found lacking when it came to his ability to make it in the seminary. Pardon the semantics.[/quote]

But Our Lady told Jacov and the others that she wanted them to be priests and nuns. So was Our Lady giving them incorrect information? She told them they were called when in fact they weren't?

Do you see how this could be throwing up red flags for people. Say that the Virgin Mary told 10 people she wanted them to be religious. 9 of them get married without entering the religious life at all, and 1 tries to enter the seminary and doesn't get in. Was the Blessed Virgin just messing with their minds? Or was it not the Blessed Virgin who said that at all?

[servus Mariae]

[quote name='Deb' post='1650619' date='Sep 8 2008, 11:04 AM']No, not everyone who disgrees with me is working for the devil. Those who use innuendo, rumor, false statements and toss around things of which they have no knowledge of, appear to me to be working for someone other than God.
I said it before. I don't care if you believe or anyone believes. It makes no difference to me. I just find lies and rumors distasteful so I state that.
I can't explain to anyone why I believe to someone who does not or who does not want to anymore than I can explain to an atheist how I know God exists. If you have no frame of reference, it can be impossible. Sometimes God just graces a person with knowledge of his truths.[/quote]


Of course you can explain to someone how you know that God exists. It is not merely a matter of faith that we believe in the existence of so Supremem a being. It is a revealed truth. We know God exists through creation--the world around us, our very being resembles Him in many ways! Finally, we know of His existence through the use of reason itself. Please take a look below:

For instance one falsely affirms the non-existence of God! In making such a claim they so ignorantly fail to realize that to say that God does not exist is a contradiction, since God's essence equals His very Existence. So, to say that God does not exist....it's the same as saying: "Existence does not exist." It's impossible and a logical flaw!

Hope this helps!

Peace to you!

[servus Mariae]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1650632' date='Sep 8 2008, 11:25 AM']But Our Lady told Jacov and the others that she wanted them to be priests and nuns. So was Our Lady giving them incorrect information? She told them they were called when in fact they weren't?

Do you see how this could be throwing up red flags for people. Say that the Virgin Mary told 10 people she wanted them to be religious. 9 of them get married without entering the religious life at all, and 1 tries to enter the seminary and doesn't get in. Was the Blessed Virgin just messing with their minds? Or was it not the Blessed Virgin who said that at all?[/quote]



NICE! I totally agree!

[Guest KevinSymonds]

It wasn't about what "Jakov wanted" it was what his alleged vision [b]told him[/b] he would become.

Can anyone please provide the letter with the Vatican protocol number on it that states the Bishop of Mostar-Duvno had his authority removed to judge Medjugorje's character?

It is not about condemning the 'seers' or those who believe in Medjugorje. It is about the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The 'seers' have said and done enough to call into question their 'visions.' Neither I nor anyone else needs to do anything but point out their blunders such as saying the "Gospa" said of the Bishop, "The Bishop has no real love of God in his heart."

-KJS

Edited September 8, 2008 by KevinSymonds

[FiliaMariae]

I don't have the Vatican's protocol number; however I do have this infomation:

The CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH with its letter prot.
144/1985-27164 of 30 May 2008, has authorized me as the local Bishop of
the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno to inform the diocesan community of the
canonical status of Fr. Tomislav ', the founder of the association
“Kraljice mira potpuno Tvoji – po Mariji k Isusu” – (Queen of Peace,
totally Yours – Through Mary to Jesus).

The letter signed by the Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine
of the Faith, Archbishop Angelo Amato, states the following:
“Within the context of the phenomenon Medjugorje, this Dicastery is
studying the case of Father Tomislav VLASIC OFM, originally from that
region and the founder of the association ‘Kraljice mira potpuno Tvoji –
po Mariji k Isusu’.

On 25 January 2008, through a properly issued Decree, this Dicastery
imposed severe cautionary and disciplinary measures on Fr. Vlasic.
The non-groundless news that reached this Congregation
reveals that the religious priest in question did not respond, even
partially, to the demands of ecclesiastical obedience required by the
very delicate situation he finds himself in, justifying himself by
citing his zealous activity in the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno and
surrounding territories, in initiating religious activities, buildings, etc.
Since Fr. Vlasic has fallen into a censure of interdict
latae sententiae reserved to this Dicastery, I kindly ask Your
Excellency, for the good of the faithful, to inform the community of the
canonical status of Fr. Vlasic and at the same time to report on the
situation in question…”.
*****
This regards the fact that the same Congregation of the Holy
See applied ecclesiastical sanctions against Rev. Father Tomislav
Vlašic', through a Decree of the Congregation (prot. 144/1985) of 25
January 2008, signed by Cardinal William Levada, Prefect, and by
Archbishop Angelo Amato, Secretary of the Congregation along with the
“Concordat cum originali” of 30 January 2008, verified by Msgr. John
Kennedy, Official of the Congregation.
The Decree was handed over to Rev. Fr. Tomislav Vlašic' in
the General Curia of the OFM in Rome on 16 February 2008 and the
notification was co-signed by the Minister General of the Franciscan
Minor Order, Father José R. Carballo, the Ordinary of Fr. Vlašic'.

The Decree of the Congregation mentions that Rev. Fr.
Tomislav Vlašic', a cleric of the Franciscan Minor Order – the founder
of the association ‘Kraljice mira potpuno Tvoji – po Mariji k Isusu’ and
who is involved in the “phenomenon Medjugorje” – has been reported to
the Congregation “for the diffusion of dubious doctrine, manipulation of
consciences, suspected mysticism, disobedience towards legitimately
issued orders and charges contra sextum.”

Having studied the case, the Congregation during its special
Congress decreed the following sanctions against Rev. Fr. Tomislav Vlasic:
“1. Mandatory residence in one of the houses of the Order in the
region of Lombardy (Italy) to be determined by the Minister General of
the Order and to be realized within thirty days from the time of the
legitimate notification of this decree;
2. All contacts with the “Kraljice Mira…” community and with its
members are prohibited;
3. Any actions involving juridical contracts and administrative
organizations, whether canonical or civil, effected without the written
permission ad actum of the Minister General of the Order and under his
responsibility are prohibited;
4. A mandatory course of theological-spiritual formation, with a
final evaluation along with a prior recognitio of this Congregation, and
a solemn professio fidei;
5. The following are also prohibited: activities involving the
‘care of souls’, preaching, public appearances, while the faculty to
hear confessions is also revoked up until the conclusion of the terms
described in the previous number, barring an evaluation of the case.

An additional sanction of a latae sententiae interdict (can.
1332) reserved to the Apostolic See is adjoined in the case of the
violation of the mandatory residence (n. 1) and the other prohibited
acts mentioned in n. 3 and n. 5.
Fr. Vlasic is forewarned that in the case of stubbornness a
juridical penal process will begin with the aim of still harsher
sanctions, not excluding dismissal, having in mind the suspicion of
heresy and schism, as well as scandalous acts contra sextum, aggravated
by mystical motivations.
Fr. Vlasic remains under the direct jurisdiction of the
Minister General of the Order of Minor Franciscans, who shall see to his
vigilance through the local Superior or another Delegate”.
*****

All the priests, religious and faithful in the Dioceses of
Mostar-Duvno and Trebnje-Mrkan, as well as all those concerned “in the
pertinent territories”, are hereby informed on the current canonical
status of Rev. Father Tomislav Vlašic'.
With the sentiments of my highest consideration,

+ Ratko Peric', Bishop
Fr. Ante Luburic', Chancellor

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1650632' date='Sep 8 2008, 12:25 PM']But Our Lady told Jacov and the others that she wanted them to be priests and nuns. So was Our Lady giving them incorrect information? She told them they were called when in fact they weren't?

Do you see how this could be throwing up red flags for people. Say that the Virgin Mary told 10 people she wanted them to be religious. 9 of them get married without entering the religious life at all, and 1 tries to enter the seminary and doesn't get in. Was the Blessed Virgin just messing with their minds? Or was it not the Blessed Virgin who said that at all?[/quote]

Good point.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
[quote name='abercius24' post='1649216' date='Sep 6 2008, 12:36 PM']Yes, she was. Her local priest called into question Mary's words, "I am the Immaculate Conception", which did not seem to make sense to him. He later changed his mind. But Bernadette did not fight him at any level. She was very patient and humble, letting God take care of the matter Himself. The bottom line is that the local Bishop AND the Vatican did later confirm the apparitions. And Bernadette was involved in some significant miracles testifying to her sainthood -- including her almost perfectly incorrupt body!

The problem people are falling into here is that they think the Pope is the ONLY infallible authority on these matters. THAT IS NOT WHAT WE TEACH AS CATHOLICS! We teach that the Bishops in union with the Holy Father ALSO TEACH WITH INFALLIBILITY. This is the whole basis of the dogma of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. Here is a quote from St. Ignatius of Antioch (Church Father) on the matter, which the Catechism of the Catholic Church quotes when discussing the Infallibility of the Bishop:

You cannot be in union with the Holy Father if you are not in union with your own Bishop. Their authority is ONE because their authority IS CHRIST and CHRIST IS ONE with the Father. Disunity within the Church is the work of the Anti-Christ, and unity within the Church is found only through obedience to Christ's Court Ministers -- the Bishops and the Pope.

And it is not correct to say the Church has not made a statement on this. The local Bishops have that authority themselves. Such a decision does not need to go to the Vatican for it to be authoritative. Don't you see, these people are ignoring the words of the other 11 apostles just because they prefer to hear the words of Peter on the matter. That is not holding to Christian principles at all. We follow the leadership of the Apostles, not just Peter. Obey your Bishop!

If God wants the apparitions of Medjugorje recognized, HE will make it happen without anyone's help. We cannot force these things and think that good will come of it. God does not advocate nor does He condone zealousness for private revelation at the cost of His children spurning the authority of His Court Ministers. If you reject your Apostle -- your Bishop, then you reject Christ's own authority.[/quote]
nicely said.

[Majella]

Finally the farce of Medjugorje is being addressed by Rome.

[Seven77]

hey this reminds me of something a wise rabbi once said...

"...I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!" (Acts 5:38-39)

[popestpiusx]

Here is a webpage with detailed refutaion of the 'apparitions'.

[url="http://www.mdaviesonmedj.com/"]http://www.mdaviesonmedj.com/[/url]