Crackdown On Medjugorje

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='picchick' post='1649185' date='Sep 6 2008, 02:56 PM']Wasn't Bernadette told the same thing?[/quote]


I don't know. My impression of Bernadette is that she was really obedient.

[abercius24]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1649192' date='Sep 6 2008, 02:09 PM']I don't know. My impression of Bernadette is that she was really obedient.[/quote]

Yes, she was. Her local priest called into question Mary's words, "I am the Immaculate Conception", which did not seem to make sense to him. He later changed his mind. But Bernadette did not fight him at any level. She was very patient and humble, letting God take care of the matter Himself. The bottom line is that the local Bishop AND the Vatican did later confirm the apparitions. And Bernadette was involved in some significant miracles testifying to her sainthood -- including her almost perfectly incorrupt body!

The problem people are falling into here is that they think the Pope is the ONLY infallible authority on these matters. THAT IS NOT WHAT WE TEACH AS CATHOLICS! We teach that the Bishops in union with the Holy Father ALSO TEACH WITH INFALLIBILITY. This is the whole basis of the dogma of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. Here is a quote from St. Ignatius of Antioch (Church Father) on the matter, which the Catechism of the Catholic Church quotes when discussing the Infallibility of the Bishop:

[quote]Chapter VIII. Let nothing be done without the bishop.
See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution [1027] of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper [1028] Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid. [1029] See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out [through their office] the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper [1030] Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as where Christ is, there does all the heavenly host stand by, waiting upon Him as the Chief Captain of the Lord's might, and the Governor of every intelligent nature. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize, or to offer, or to present sacrifice, or to celebrate a love-feast. [1031] But that which seems good to him, is also well-pleasing to God, that everything ye do may be secure and valid. -- St. Ignatius of Antioch; Letter to the Smyrneans; 110 A.D.[/quote]

You cannot be in union with the Holy Father if you are not in union with your own Bishop. Their authority is ONE because their authority IS CHRIST and CHRIST IS ONE with the Father. Disunity within the Church is the work of the Anti-Christ, and unity within the Church is found only through obedience to Christ's Court Ministers -- the Bishops and the Pope.

And it is not correct to say the Church has not made a statement on this. The local Bishops have that authority themselves. Such a decision does not need to go to the Vatican for it to be authoritative. Don't you see, these people are ignoring the words of the other 11 apostles just because they prefer to hear the words of Peter on the matter. That is not holding to Christian principles at all. We follow the leadership of the Apostles, not just Peter. Obey your Bishop!

If God wants the apparitions of Medjugorje recognized, HE will make it happen without anyone's help. We cannot force these things and think that good will come of it. God does not advocate nor does He condone zealousness for private revelation at the cost of His children spurning the authority of His Court Ministers. If you reject your Apostle -- your Bishop, then you reject Christ's own authority.

Edited September 6, 2008 by abercius24

[mortify]

In time all things will be revealed.

[misereremi]

I went there last month with a bunch of atheists, Muslims, Anglicans and Catholics. Many of us had been given free tickets- there was a big youth fest going on. (The non-Catholics found the penance, prayer and fasting a bit too hard core afer a few days, so opted for trips to the nearby waterfalls and Croatian coast.)

The 'visionaries' do live in quite humble homes, like Deb was saying. I really don't know about the apparitions, that's for the Church to decide. When I was there people around me were seeing the sun dance, the cross spin, and all sorts. My wedding ring turned bright gold in colour, but I think that can be scientifically explained. For me the most awesome thing was seeing hundreds and hundreds of European youth really into their faith- at a time when everyone says the faith in Europe is dead. My worry is that some people place so much importance on Medugorje that a decision against it may lead them away from the Church.

I think it's sad (albeit inevitable) that there is so much arguing over Medugorje.

[Guest KevinSymonds]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1649135' date='Sep 6 2008, 01:03 PM']There is no need to be so personal. I am sure Deb is not "not listening" she just has a different opinion. Which she is allowed to. The Church has not ruled on this yet so there is a diversity of judgments permitted![/quote]

Maggie, I believe that I have been doing a good job leaving personal remarks out, even in the face of being told with tongue-in-cheek that I am ignorant and an agent for the devil.

Coincidentally, I did not see you telling Deb that she was being too "personal" with such remarks.

-Kevin Symonds

[Guest KevinSymonds]

I have posted a response to an article written about Medjugorje by a Max Farrugia if anyone is interested. I posted it on my blog:

[url="http://d-rium.blogspot.com/2008/09/response-to-max-farrugias-article-part.html"]http://d-rium.blogspot.com/2008/09/respons...ticle-part.html[/url]

Peace!
-Kevin Symonds

[littlesister]

Folks, please...

After lurking here for several days :

If Our Lady is appearing in Medjugorje...she is. If she isn't....she isn't.

In either case, this discussion is sounding more and more like an argument between two entrenched opinions. It would be surprising if the tone of it rejoices her heart.

Could we cool it down? Or agree, with some degree of good cheer, to disagree?

Thanks.

[princessgianna]

also remember if Our Lady is appearing it is [i]private revelation [/i]
meaning you can still be a great Catholic even if you don't want to believe it!

EDIT:Public revelation is something that Catholics must believe but that ended with when St.John died! So while the Church is discovering new things about our faith-the Church has always had it!

Edited September 7, 2008 by princessgianna

[Dave]

Allow me to add my $.02 ...

Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that there have been many conversions associated with Medjugorje, plus miraculous healings, which, some say, means it can't possibly be false. Not necessarily. Such things have been known to occur among people who visit false apparition sites in addition to true ones. What does it mean? First of all, it simply means God brings good things even out of bad things. Second, Satan knows as well as the rest of us that in order to win the war, you sometimes have to lose a battle or two. In the battle for people's souls, if some souls slip through Satan's fingers, yet if he can at the same time claim even more souls for himself, then that's perfectly ok with him. That is, while here may be souls that get converted as a result of Medjugorje, there may also be many more souls who eventually become estranged from God and His Church as a result of it.

[XIX]

I haven't read anything except for the article, but the article itself seems horribly biased and one-sided, slanted, etc.

[Guest KevinSymonds]

[quote name='Dave' post='1650224' date='Sep 7 2008, 06:45 PM']Second, Satan knows as well as the rest of us that in order to win the war, you sometimes have to lose a battle or two. In the battle for people's souls, if some souls slip through Satan's fingers, yet if he can at the same time claim even more souls for himself, then that's perfectly ok with him. That is, while here may be souls that get converted as a result of Medjugorje, there may also be many more souls who eventually become estranged from God and His Church as a result of it.[/quote]

The kingdom of heaven is not far from you Dave.

[servus Mariae]

...

Edited September 8, 2008 by servus Mariae

[servus Mariae]

[quote name='Deb' post='1648748' date='Sep 5 2008, 10:27 PM']People, people, people.

The only one who was called to be a religious was Jacov. He attempted to become a priest, but he could not keep up with the education requirements. Not smart enough. Must not have been God's plan for him.[/quote]

If Jacov was in fact 'called' to be a religious as you yourself say (as he himself says), he would have become a religious. Our Lord would have bestowed upon him the sufficient amount of grace to endure his studies and learn all that was required for priestly formation. There is no limit on God. Those whom He calls to His service, He blesses them with an abundance of graces....He does not limit them and make them fetch for themselves. If that is the case, it would be impossible to live, to love, to merely exist!!!

Than you go on to say, that 'it must not have been God's plan for him.' If someone is called, it is God's plan!!!!!!! For Who else would call them but God Himself?

Im sorry but you're just not making any sense.

Pax tecum!

Edited September 8, 2008 by servus Mariae

[Deb]

[quote name='servus Mariae' post='1650587' date='Sep 8 2008, 10:36 AM']If Jacov was in fact 'called' to be a religious as you yourself say (as he himself says), he would have become a religious. Our Lord would have bestowed upon him the sufficient amount of grace to endure his studies and learn all that was required for priestly formation. There is no limit on God. Those whom He calls to His service, He blesses them with an abundance of graces....He does not limit them and make them fetch for themselves. If that is the case, it would be impossible to live, to love, to merely exist!!!

Than you go on to say, that 'it must not have been God's plan for him.' If someone is called, it is God's plan!!!!!!! For Who else would call them but God Himself?

Im sorry but you're just not making any sense.

Pax tecum![/quote]


Okay. Maybe God did not "call" Jacov to become a priest. I guess it was what Jacov wanted and not God's will. The point was that Jacov journeyed on that path and was found lacking when it came to his ability to make it in the seminary. Pardon the semantics.

[Deb]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1649137' date='Sep 6 2008, 01:10 PM']Okay, I've been trying to keep my mind open. But can someone please explain this to me? Deb? Anybody?

I've been exploring the website of the diocese that Medjugorje belongs too ... I don't read Croatian so it was a bit of a struggle. But eventually I found this, an official Confirmation homily given by the local ordinary July 2006. It's posted in Croatian, Italian and English. (That last one I understand )

The whole homily is [url="http://www.cbismo.com/index.php?mod=vijest&vijest=91"]here[/url]. Like's been said, the bishop doesn't like the apparitions. No shocker. But then towards the end there's this:

"Therefore I responsibly call upon those who claim themselves to be “seers”, as well as those persons behind the “messages”, to demonstrate ecclesiastical obedience and to cease with these public manifestations and messages in this parish. In this fashion they shall show their necessary adherence to the Church, by neither placing private “apparitions” nor private sayings before the official position of the Church."


Okay. So here's the local ordinary calling the seers to obedience. He's not asking them to commit as sin or anything, he's asking them to quit the public manifestations of their visions. As far as I can tell, two years later, the messages continue to be posted on Medjugorje's website.

This is not their spiritual director being disobedient. This is the seers themselves ignoring the lawful command of their local ordinary.

To me this is IT. Here's proof, the apparitions are not from God. If the Virgin Mary was really appearing she would have told the seers to obey their Bishop, who is not asking them to commit a sin.

How is this refutable?[/quote]


Actually, Medjugorje is not under the authority of the Bishop of Mostar so his requests are no more valid for anyone there than would be the requests of my Bishop, who actually found Medjugorje a great place.
There is a reason that this matter was removed from the Bishop of Mostar and placed with Cardinal Puljic'. I do believe that everything that has to do with Medjugorje is now under directive of the Vatican. I may be wrong on that, but I don't think so. Check with Puljic.
Keep looking. I am sure there is something out there to be found that can condemn the seers and all those who believe.