Crackdown On Medjugorje

[picchick]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1648599' date='Sep 5 2008, 08:20 PM']I'm not passing judgment on anyone. This is something they are saying themselves: the Blessed Mother appeared to us, asked us to be religious, and we didn't do it.[/quote]

Not to add fuel to the fire because I as I said before...I am just not into it. But it is interesting that they can say it. It take a great deal of courage to come out and say, "Yeah, the Blessed Virgin appeared to us, asked us to be religious but we said no." THAT takes courage.

[jeffpugh]

I didn't read through all the responses, but the first/second one should have been "where is the source link?"

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='picchick' post='1648611' date='Sep 5 2008, 09:26 PM']Not to add fuel to the fire because I as I said before...I am just not into it. But it is interesting that they can say it. It take a great deal of courage to come out and say, "Yeah, the Blessed Virgin appeared to us, asked us to be religious but we said no." THAT takes courage.[/quote]


That's true. I guess if I were a fraud I'd would be trying to convince people how holy I was, not admitting I told God "no."

[philothea]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1648284' date='Sep 5 2008, 02:00 PM']If the Mother of God came to me and said, "I would like you to be a nun," after I recovered consciousness I sould say, "Okaaaaay." I would not reply "You're wrong, Immaculate Queen! My vocation is to married life!"[/quote]
It was when the visionaries started getting married that I began to have serious doubts about the truth of the apparitions.

Even if Mary hadn't said what she did, wouldn't it be impossible to devote yourself and your affections to a spouse and children after that kind of mystical experience? I can't fathom it.

[abercius24]

Monsignor Ratko Peric is the Bishop serving over the diocese of Mostar, which includes the region of Medjugorje. In 1995 he published a book entitled The Throne of Wisdom. Here are some extracts from chapters on the Medjugorje phenomenon.

[quote]The competent Church authorities, first of all the Diocesan Bishop on the basis of investigations made by his two Commissions…and then the Commission of the Bishop's Conference…both brought forth the following [u]negative judgement[/u] regarding the supernatural nature of the apparitions of Medjugorje: "it cannot be affirmed that these matters concern supernatural apparitions or revelations."…Therefore, it is forbidden to claim and profess the contrary, in churches and ecclesiastical communities, that is, as if Our Lady appeared there or is still appearing…The "messages" of Medjugorje on prayer, fasting, faith, conversion and peace, repeated daily as something new but in reality always the same…are already present in Holy Scripture and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church…This Christian requirement and duty cannot be lessened or strengthened by any confirmed apparition, let alone thousands of unsubstantiated "apparitions" at Medjugorje … there are such contradictions, falsehoods and banalities, which cannot be attributed at all to our heavenly Mother…since there does not exist even a minimal guarantee of credibility…The talk of a "great sign", of "ten secrets", which Our Lady supposedly conveyed to the children, resembles the scare tactics which are typical of non-Catholic communities and not the sound teachings of the Catholic Church…Our holy faith, which is based upon listening to the word of God and not upon seeing heavenly apparitions…Neither the diocesan Bishop as the head of the local diocese of Mostar-Duvno, nor any other competent authority has ever officially declared the parish church of St. James the Apostly in Medjugorje as a "Marian Shrine" and no "cult" of the Madonna has ever been proclaimed…the local Bishop has repeatedly forbidden anyone from preaching or speaking in churches on the supernatural nature of these so-called "apparitions and revelations", and he has asked that no official pilgrimages be organized…These and similar warnings were made by our former Bishop's Conference, and by the Holy See. Whoever acts to the contrary, is directly going against the official statements of the Church which…still remain valid -- Mostar, May 1995 Mons. Ratko PericBishop of Mostar[/quote]

If we believe in the Ordinary and Universal Magesterium as solemnly declared by the Vatican II Council, then we have to assume that the Bishops of Yugoslavia will be supported by the Holy Father in their condemnation and suppression of the Medjugorje phenomenon. Yes, many good people have had supernatural experiences and conversions there. I personally know a few myself. But I believe their experiences were a result of their hearts being open to the work of the Lord and not because of the phenomenon itself. In fact, if you look at the significantly numerous, detrimental schismatic and heretical events that have occured in Medjugorje as a result of these "apparitions", you would agree that the devil is in fact having his way with many others despite the authentic conversions that occur on the phenomenon's periphery.

And if you read the words of "Mary" from these apparitions, you will find "her" teaching the Heresy of Indifferentism, stating that all religions are equal.

Edited September 6, 2008 by abercius24

[Deb]

People, people, people.

First, the visionaries are not living in fancy houses and driving fast cars and getting rich. That is all croutons. I have been to Mirjana's house, Jacov's house and Vicka's houses. They are not new, they are not fancy. They are not gated. They do have fences around them such as you would to keep your dog in the yard or stone ones to keep the sheep out of the yard. (the streets are narrow, the taxis drive like maniacs and there are a lot of people who go there.) They do not have security systems or anything one would connect with the rich and famous. I don't know who would have a tennis court because there isn't really any room to have anything there. The houses are stone and built so close together, you can't get anything in them. Maybe Marija in Italy? That would surely be a sin though, wouldn't it. 27 years of doing what they do and someone got a tennis court our of it. Pathetic.

They house and feed pilgrims. They are about as unpretentious as they can be. They are humble and prayerful and give their lives to God every single day. The only one who was called to be a religious was Jacov. He attempted to become a priest, but he could not keep up with the education requirements. Not smart enough. Must not have been God's plan for him. I have heard four of the six and they have never spoken anything except the messages of Mary and the doctrines of our faith. If God were not with them, they would cracked under the strain of their lives a long time ago. Try living in a glass cage for 27 years and see how you would do.

If a person does not want to believe, that is fine. Even if sanctioned by the Church, personal revelation is not something you are required to believe in. I could care less if anyone else believed in the Blessed Mother coming to Medjugorje. I just get ticked off when people cite things like they are true when they have never been there and just pick up whatever peice of croutons is on the internet and pass it along like it was gospel.

I would love to see one detractor give an explanation of exactly what is happening in Medjugorje? Thirty million pilgrims having mass hysteria over those 27 years? Just the sheer number of conversions alone, not to mention those who have gone on to enter the seminary or the religous life would have to indicate something of God. Forget the miracles. They are nothing compared to the lives that have been changed there.

When I was waiting for the group before we boarded our plane to start out, all I could think of was that I was making the worst mistake of my life. The though of being with these holy rollers for eleven days was so painful. My sister was thinking that getting me to come with was the worst mistake she had ever made in her life. In what ways would I embarrass her with my total disbelief in God and disdain for the Catholic Church? She figured I would be the last person she knew who would ever turn to God. I agreed to go to Mass once with the group and I diid not want my sister praying around me. HA! God had other plans. Fr. Jozo melted my heart with his touch. Scared me so badly I ran from the church crying. My entire world shifted in one moment and God revealed himself to me. The best and worst moment of my life because he also revealed to me who and what I was, but he also revealed how much he loved me. I owe my life to the Blessed Mother and my Lord Jesus Christ. My personal revelations are up for belief or disbelief too but, I know what Medjugorje is. There is no place I have ever seen or been to or heard of on earth that is that full of peace. You can feel it. It is the faith of the people who live there, the people speaking every language you can think of all together in praise and worship of the Lord. It is a beautiful thing. It is forever in my mind and my heart.

So, say what you will. Just be open to what God can do and whom he can do it through. Do not disparage things that bear great fruit with rumors and innuendo. If you have a fact, state it.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1648702' date='Sep 5 2008, 09:53 PM']And if you read the words of "Mary" from these apparitions, you will find "her" teaching the Heresy of Indifferentism, stating that all religions are equal.[/quote]

"Is the Blessed Mother calling all people to be Catholic?"
"No. The Blessed Mother says all religions are dear to her and her Son."
–"Seer" Vicka Ivankovic

[jmjtina]

links and context please.

sites are VERY important.

I've heard only good things, so links would help.

[Justin86]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1648284' date='Sep 6 2008, 03:00 AM']But they say themselves that Our Lady told them [b][i]she would like them to become priests and nuns. [/i][/b] And they didn't do it. Now what the heck is that. Talk about having the ultimate vocation director in Our Lady GIVE YOU the answer to your question and then you just say no? It's correct that we all have free will and God is not going to stop loving us and saving us if we say no, but rejecting a vocation is rejecting part of God's will and turning down a boatload of grace.[/quote]
I understand where you are coming from, but the Little Flower's father felt called to be a priest, told God no on that, and now the Church is canonizing him! It's not considered a sin to choose a different state in life than the one you are called to.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1648852' date='Sep 6 2008, 01:31 AM']I understand where you are coming from, but the Little Flower's father felt called to be a priest, told God no on that, and now the Church is canonizing him! It's not considered a sin to choose a different state in life than the one you are called to.[/quote]

I believe the Little Flower's father wanted very much to be a priest. He didn't say "no," he was refused entry to the seminary b/c he was mentally deficient. A similar thing happened to the Little Flower's mother But God turns all things to good and He had a plan. I am not dissing the visionaries for pursuing a marriage vocation, I am just pointing out that they say the Mother of God herself told them she would like them to be priests and nuns. If this is what she actually said then it takes a lot of chutzpah to decide differently. I would figure that Mary pretty much had it nailed down

Medjugorge.org directly addresses the questions surrounding Indifferentism in[url="http://www.medjugorje.org/faq.htm#no15"] their FAQ[/url].

[quote]There was a question asked of Our Lady in October 1981 which was: Are all religions the same? Our Lady answered: "Members of all faiths are equal before God. God rules over each faith just like a sovereign over his kingdom. In the world, all religions are not the same because all people have not complied with the commandments of God. They reject and disparage them."

The difficulty that some Catholics have had with this answer is based on the belief that the only salvation is within the Catholic Church. But the Catholic Church does not believe this. In fact, Vatican II in its Dogmatic Constitution on the Church "Lumen Genitum" says this: "Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God, and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life."

It is a great privilage ([i]sic[/i]) to be Catholic and I love my faith. I share my faith through my actions and words whenever possible. But as Matthew 7 says "Judge not, that you may not be judged". It is not up to us to decide who goes to Heaven and who does not by their faith.[/quote]

This is of course a complete distortion of Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church does in fact teach that there is no salvation outside of the Church; we simply don't know where the Church begins and ends. It is NOT a matter of all faiths being equal before God. I hate how he ends with "judge not lest ye be judged." How many times have we heard that verse abused - "don't judge my abortion, don't judge my homosexual acts, judge not lest ye be judged!" - and here it is being abused again.

In the end it is kind of silly to get worked up about this. After the Church rules the antis will no longer be able to cry out fraud, fraud, or else the pros will not be able to keep insisting that Our Lady is actually showing up. Everything will be resolved in good time. It's too bad patience is not a modern virtue.

[Deb]

However, Mary's five stones to practice continually for your individual conversion are:

1. Prayer with the heart: Rosary
2. Eucharist
3. Holy Bible
4. Fasting
5. Monthly confession

Kind of hard to fit those into your life if you aren't Catholic, Mary also said that the divisions and different religions of this world are not of God, they are of man.
WE know there is one true Church. Man does not. Those who are not taught the truth of God or of the Catholic religion will not be judged as those who are taught and turn away from living God's truth.
There is only one Church in Medjugorje and it is the Catholic Church. All religions are welcomed there. Not everyone who comes without being Catholic, leaves that way.

[Guest KevinSymonds]

[quote name='Deb' post='1648748' date='Sep 5 2008, 10:27 PM']People, people, people.

First, the visionaries are not living in fancy houses and driving fast cars and getting rich. That is all croutons. I have been to Mirjana's house, Jacov's house and Vicka's houses. They are not new, they are not fancy. They are not gated. They do have fences around them such as you would to keep your dog in the yard or stone ones to keep the sheep out of the yard. (the streets are narrow, the taxis drive like maniacs and there are a lot of people who go there.) They do not have security systems or anything one would connect with the rich and famous. I don't know who would have a tennis court because there isn't really any room to have anything there. The houses are stone and built so close together, you can't get anything in them. Maybe Marija in Italy? That would surely be a sin though, wouldn't it. 27 years of doing what they do and someone got a tennis court our of it. Pathetic.

They house and feed pilgrims. They are about as unpretentious as they can be. They are humble and prayerful and give their lives to God every single day. The only one who was called to be a religious was Jacov. He attempted to become a priest, but he could not keep up with the education requirements. Not smart enough. Must not have been God's plan for him. I have heard four of the six and they have never spoken anything except the messages of Mary and the doctrines of our faith. If God were not with them, they would cracked under the strain of their lives a long time ago. Try living in a glass cage for 27 years and see how you would do.

If a person does not want to believe, that is fine. Even if sanctioned by the Church, personal revelation is not something you are required to believe in. I could care less if anyone else believed in the Blessed Mother coming to Medjugorje. I just get ticked off when people cite things like they are true when they have never been there and just pick up whatever peice of croutons is on the internet and pass it along like it was gospel.

I would love to see one detractor give an explanation of exactly what is happening in Medjugorje? Thirty million pilgrims having mass hysteria over those 27 years? Just the sheer number of conversions alone, not to mention those who have gone on to enter the seminary or the religous life would have to indicate something of God. Forget the miracles. They are nothing compared to the lives that have been changed there.

When I was waiting for the group before we boarded our plane to start out, all I could think of was that I was making the worst mistake of my life. The though of being with these holy rollers for eleven days was so painful. My sister was thinking that getting me to come with was the worst mistake she had ever made in her life. In what ways would I embarrass her with my total disbelief in God and disdain for the Catholic Church? She figured I would be the last person she knew who would ever turn to God. I agreed to go to Mass once with the group and I diid not want my sister praying around me. HA! God had other plans. Fr. Jozo melted my heart with his touch. Scared me so badly I ran from the church crying. My entire world shifted in one moment and God revealed himself to me. The best and worst moment of my life because he also revealed to me who and what I was, but he also revealed how much he loved me. I owe my life to the Blessed Mother and my Lord Jesus Christ. My personal revelations are up for belief or disbelief too but, I know what Medjugorje is. There is no place I have ever seen or been to or heard of on earth that is that full of peace. You can feel it. It is the faith of the people who live there, the people speaking every language you can think of all together in praise and worship of the Lord. It is a beautiful thing. It is forever in my mind and my heart.

So, say what you will. Just be open to what God can do and whom he can do it through. Do not disparage things that bear great fruit with rumors and innuendo. If you have a fact, state it.[/quote]


Question:
"[i]The only one who was called to be a religious was Jacov. He attempted to become a priest, but he could not keep up with the education requirements. Not smart enough. Must not have been God's plan for him[/i]."

If one is called to be a religious, that is a call from God. How can it be possible for the call to be issued (supposedly) to Jakov and then suddenly not be God's Will?

"[i]I would love to see one detractor give an explanation of exactly what is happening in Medjugorje[/i]?"

You need go no further than read Bishop Peric's own writings on the subject as he has treated this very question. But remember, he is an "agent of the devil" so no one listens to him. The thing is that there are numerous arguments against Medjugorje. Medjugorje's supporters simply do not listen.

I myself, Deb, have tried charitably to offer you some further considerations over on another thread (I still await your response to my last detailed post on the subject, btw).

In place of actually conversating with me, you indirectly accuse me of "working for the devil" and claim I know nothing of what goes on in Medjugorje. I think I definitively debunked the latter but the former will be a bit harder to root out of your heart.

Anyone who disagrees with your position you brand as "working for the devil." Does it come as a surprise, then, that you have to ask to find an argument against Medjugorje?

You don't listen.

Then you wonder why people question Medjugorje?

Look at its supporters.

-Kevin Symonds

[Maggyie]

There is no need to be so personal. I am sure Deb is not "not listening" she just has a different opinion. Which she is allowed to. The Church has not ruled on this yet so there is a diversity of judgments permitted!

I should add that Deb is right now that I think of it, I have no concrete evidence that the seers are living like playboys (no pictures etc) so that is probably not a good argument to use. Although the accusation is in many articles including the Daily Mail one, and again no matter how bad the media is it can't just invent out of thin air.

Here is the sourcing for HisChildForever's post:

[quote]Q. Is the Blessed Mother calling all people on earth to be Catholic? A. No. The Blessed Mother says all religions are dear to her and her Son. She says it is we on earth who have made division. ..."

Janice T. Connell, The Visions of the Children, The Apparitions of the Blessed Mother at Medjugorje, St. Martin's Press, August, 1992[/quote]

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Visions-Children-Apparitions-Blessed-Medjugorje/dp/031218204X"]Amazon link [/url]

Amazon has a "search inside the book" function and you can actually see this "question and answer" on [url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/031218204X/ref=sib_dp_srch_pop?v=search-inside&keywords=all+religions+are+dear+to+her&go.x=0&go.y=0#"]page 119 here[/url]. (works best in Internet Explorer or Firefox. If you just see the cover, search the phrase "all religions are dear to her.") To see the whole text I think you have to register at Amazon.

According to Publisher's Weekly, the author of this book gave up her law career to become the visionaries' spokesperson. I do not know if she is still in that role. Obviously that particular visionary's characterization of the Madonna is grossly inadequate with regard to Catholic doctrine and the duty of evangelization.

Edited September 6, 2008 by Maggie

[Lilllabettt]

Okay, I've been trying to keep my mind open. But can someone please explain this to me? Deb? Anybody?

I've been exploring the website of the diocese that Medjugorje belongs too ... I don't read Croatian so it was a bit of a struggle. But eventually I found this, an official Confirmation homily given by the local ordinary July 2006. It's posted in Croatian, Italian and English. (That last one I understand )

The whole homily is [url="http://www.cbismo.com/index.php?mod=vijest&vijest=91"]here[/url]. Like's been said, the bishop doesn't like the apparitions. No shocker. But then towards the end there's this:

"Therefore I responsibly call upon those who claim themselves to be “seers”, as well as those persons behind the “messages”, to demonstrate ecclesiastical obedience and to cease with these public manifestations and messages in this parish. In this fashion they shall show their necessary adherence to the Church, by neither placing private “apparitions” nor private sayings before the official position of the Church."


Okay. So here's the local ordinary calling the seers to obedience. He's not asking them to commit as sin or anything, he's asking them to quit the public manifestations of their visions. As far as I can tell, two years later, the messages continue to be posted on Medjugorje's website.

This is not their spiritual director being disobedient. This is the seers themselves ignoring the lawful command of their local ordinary.

To me this is IT. Here's proof, the apparitions are not from God. If the Virgin Mary was really appearing she would have told the seers to obey their Bishop, who is not asking them to commit a sin.

How is this refutable?

[picchick]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1649137' date='Sep 6 2008, 01:10 PM']Okay, I've been trying to keep my mind open. But can someone please explain this to me? Deb? Anybody?

I've been exploring the website of the diocese that Medjugorje belongs too ... I don't read Croatian so it was a bit of a struggle. But eventually I found this, an official Confirmation homily given by the local ordinary July 2006. It's posted in Croatian, Italian and English. (That last one I understand )

The whole homily is [url="http://www.cbismo.com/index.php?mod=vijest&vijest=91"]here[/url]. Like's been said, the bishop doesn't like the apparitions. No shocker. But then towards the end there's this:

"Therefore I responsibly call upon those who claim themselves to be “seers”, as well as those persons behind the “messages”, to demonstrate ecclesiastical obedience and to cease with these public manifestations and messages in this parish. In this fashion they shall show their necessary adherence to the Church, by neither placing private “apparitions” nor private sayings before the official position of the Church."


Okay. So here's the local ordinary calling the seers to obedience. He's not asking them to commit as sin or anything, he's asking them to quit the public manifestations of their visions. As far as I can tell, two years later, the messages continue to be posted on Medjugorje's website.

This is not their spiritual director being disobedient. This is the seers themselves ignoring the lawful command of their local ordinary.

To me this is IT. Here's proof, the apparitions are not from God. If the Virgin Mary was really appearing she would have told the seers to obey their Bishop, who is not asking them to commit a sin.

How is this refutable?[/quote]

Wasn't Bernadette told the same thing?