Quran, Book Of Morman

[mortify]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1650128' date='Sep 7 2008, 03:39 PM']We see the same thing in the Bible. What were Jesus' last words on the cross?[/quote]

This response of yours doesn't address what I said.

The question is whether the Qur'an has contradictions, the answer is [b]yes[/b] and I provided an example. We can discuss apparent biblical contradictions another time.

[quote]True, but much is lost in translation, especially in English. To fully appreciate the New Testament, knowledge of Greek is necessary, just as knowledge of Hebrew is necessary to fully appreciate the Old Testament.[/quote]

I was fully capable of appreciating the beauty of the NT even while reading the poorly translated Today's English Version. Appreciation is not simply an intellectual matter. I have read two translations of the Qur'an, I found it to be inferior in terms of depth and wisdom compared to the NT.

[philothea]

[quote name='mortify' post='1650316' date='Sep 7 2008, 08:49 PM']I was fully capable of appreciating the beauty of the NT even while reading the poorly translated Today's English Version. Appreciation is not simply an intellectual matter. I have read two translations of the Qur'an, I found it to be inferior in terms of depth and wisdom compared to the NT.[/quote]
In all honesty I'm impressed at you and Don John for having read the Qur'an. I made it through three pages and got a headache. Every time I've tried, I get a headache.

I don't know what that says about me or the text, but I have read all kinds of obscure, weird, complex, and/or boring stuff, and plenty of texts from other religions, but I never have that reaction to anything else.

[Edited to add: Actually, I just remembered. Nietzsche has the same effect. Conclude from that what you will.]

Edited September 8, 2008 by philothea

[Saint Therese]

About the book of Mormon..
I'm not sure about blatant contradictions.. but it is clearly.. fabricated. I could elaborate if you want.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1650316' date='Sep 7 2008, 09:49 PM']This response of yours doesn't address what I said.

The question is whether the Qur'an has contradictions, the answer is [b]yes[/b] and I provided an example. We can discuss apparent biblical contradictions another time.[/quote]

Why, then, does Islam continue to exist when you've just shown us its contradictions?

My point is contradictions or other logical fallacies in any holy book are primarily a matter of one's belief. Probably every holy book has alleged contradictions and other logical fallacies, and believers in those holy books have reasoned rebuttals for every one of them. Somewhere out there, some young Muslims are on phatmecca.com talking about the Bible's contradictions.

Edited September 8, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[misereremi]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1650238' date='Sep 8 2008, 12:55 AM']Misereremi and mortify only touched on one's ability to understand and appreciate the Qu'ran without knowledge of Arabic. I'm aware that the true Qu'ran only exists in Arabic, and might be what misereremi meant, but that isn't what was said.

Fact is, to fully appreciate any work of literature, one must know the original language.[/quote]
Apologies for not making myself clear. I was giving the response that the Muslims I questioned give me when I ask them about contradictions in their book. They literally mean that a translation is not the Qur’an (i.e. ‘you haven’t read the Qur’an, you’ve only read a translation!) and therefore I cannot draw the correct meaning out of the ayats if I am reading a translation. At best I can gain some understanding from reading a commentary from a Qur’anic Arabic speaking Muslim exegete.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1650463' date='Sep 8 2008, 06:11 AM']Why, then, does Islam continue to exist when you've just shown us its contradictions?

My point is contradictions or other logical fallacies in any holy book are primarily a matter of one's belief. Probably every holy book has alleged contradictions and other logical fallacies, and believers in those holy books have reasoned rebuttals for every one of them. Somewhere out there, some young Muslims are on phatmecca.com talking about the Bible's contradictions. [/quote]
phatmecca, lol! Oh for sure, there's a lot of talk about contradictions in the Holy Bible, despite the fact that in the Qur’an it says that if anyone doubts what has been revealed to their prophet, they should look to the scriptures that came before it- the Torah and the Injeel (Gospel). To explain this reference away, they say our scriptures have been corrupted. Yet they also interpret our ‘corrupted’ scriptures - for e.g. when Our Lord said He would leave us the Holy Spirit, they say that in reality he was referring to their prophet.

Personally I have seen too many arguments about books that didn’t lead to any conversions, mainly because these arguments were about looking for contradictions and not seeking the Truth.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='misereremi' post='1650510' date='Sep 8 2008, 02:14 AM']Apologies for not making myself clear. I was giving the response that the Muslims I questioned give me when I ask them about contradictions in their book. They literally mean that a translation is not the Qur’an (i.e. ‘you haven’t read the Qur’an, you’ve only read a translation!) and therefore I cannot draw the correct meaning out of the ayats if I am reading a translation. At best I can gain some understanding from reading a commentary from a Qur’anic Arabic speaking Muslim exegete.


phatmecca, lol! Oh for sure, there's a lot of talk about contradictions in the Holy Bible, despite the fact that in the Qur’an it says that if anyone doubts what has been revealed to their prophet, they should look to the scriptures that came before it- the Torah and the Injeel (Gospel). To explain this reference away, they say our scriptures have been corrupted. Yet they also interpret our ‘corrupted’ scriptures - for e.g. when Our Lord said He would leave us the Holy Spirit, they say that in reality he was referring to their prophet.[/quote]

Yeah, I once debated with a Muslim over instant messenger for several months and learned these things, among a lot of other Islamic apologetics. Have to say, some of it was pretty interesting, and really made me think about why I am a Christian. I wasn't Catholic at the time, but that was about the time when I started to consider it, and getting into the practice of critical thinking and apologetics did prove helpful in making sense out of the various Christian traditions and apologetics supporting each.

[quote name='misereremi' post='1650510' date='Sep 8 2008, 02:14 AM']Personally I have seen too many arguments about books that didn’t lead to any conversions, mainly because these arguments were about looking for contradictions and not seeking the Truth.[/quote]

Because arguments primarily address the thinking in our heads, but true conversion occurs with believing in our hearts and opening to grace. The arguments are good and necessary, but they aren't enough on their own.

Edited September 8, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[mortify]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1650463' date='Sep 7 2008, 11:11 PM']Why, then, does Islam continue to exist when you've just shown us its contradictions?[/quote]

I never said belief in Islam was rational.
[quote]My point is contradictions or other logical fallacies in any holy book are primarily a matter of one's belief. Probably every holy book has alleged contradictions and other logical fallacies, and believers in those holy books have reasoned rebuttals for every one of them. Somewhere out there, some young Muslims are on phatmecca.com talking about the Bible's contradictions. [/quote]

I'd much rather see your explanation to the contradiction I presented than hear you talk about the existence of contradictions in the Bible. Trying to find faults in Catholicism is not a means of addressing the real problems in the Islamic religion.

[dairygirl4u2c]

Surat 7:120-126, 10:81-83, and 40:28


i think most people didn't respond cause they were too lazy to look it up, cause you were too lazy to copy and paste it when you were reading it.
i hope you read it, anyway.

i don't see the contradictions necessarily though. maybe you can spell it out for me.



120. And the sorcerers fell down prostrate.
121. They said: "We believe in the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists).
122. "The Lord of Mûsa (Moses) and Hârûn (Aaron)."
123. Fir'aun (Pharaoh) said: "You have believed in him [Mûsa (Moses)] before I give you permission. Surely, this is a plot which you have plotted in the city to drive out its people, but you shall come to know.
124. "Surely, I will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, then I will crucify you all."
125. They said: "Verily, we are returning to our Lord.
126. "And you take vengeance on us only because we believed in the Ayât (proofs, evidences, lessons, signs, etc.) of our Lord when they reached us! Our Lord! pour out on us patience, and cause us to die as Muslims."

81. Then when they had cast down, Mûsa (Moses) said: "What you have brought is sorcery, Allâh will surely make it of no effect. Verily, Allâh does not set right the work of Al-Mufsidûn (the evil-doers, corrupts, etc.).
82. "And Allâh will establish and make apparent the truth by His Words, however much the Mujrimûn (criminals, disbelievers, polytheists, sinners, etc.) may hate it."
83. But none believed in Mûsa (Moses) except the offspring of his people, because of the fear of Fir'aun (Pharaoh) and his chiefs, lest they should persecute them; and verily, Fir'aun (Pharaoh) was arrogant tyrant on the earth, he was indeed one of the Musrifûn (polytheists, sinners and transgressors, those who give up the truth and follow the evil, and commit all kinds of great sins).

28 And a believing man of Fir'aun's (Pharaoh) family, who hid his faith said: "Would you kill a man because he says: My Lord is Allâh, and he has come to you with clear signs (proofs) from your Lord? And if he is a liar, upon him will be (the sin of) his lie; but if he is telling the truth, then some of that (calamity) wherewith he threatens you will befall on you." Verily, Allâh guides not one who is a Musrif (a polytheist, or a murderer who shed blood without a right, or those who commit great sins, oppressor, transgressor), a liar!


i don't understand what context they are talking in.
it very well looks like it could be that they no longer believed as they did because pharoah scared them out of it.
it could be some were believing in the first verse. it doesn't mean those who believing in the second verse weren't the same.
maybe it could also be that they changed but it's not necessarily, other than to read "they believed" and "they didn't beleive" arguably out of context.

maybe you can spell it out for me. i'm genuinely having a hard time seeing it.

[mortify]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1650921' date='Sep 8 2008, 09:10 PM']i think most people didn't respond cause they were too lazy to look it up, cause you were too lazy to copy and paste it when you were reading it.
i hope you read it, anyway.[/quote]

No reason to presume anyone is lazy.

[quote]i don't understand what context they are talking in.[/quote]

Then you should read the context of those passages. The scene is the same in all passages: Moses approaches Pharoah to confront him about his polytheism. In one passage after Moses performs the miracle of his rod the sorcerers who used magic made a public expression of faith and were willing to be executed. In another passage after Moses threw his rod it says no one believed except a few children. The last passage mentions a member of Pharoah's family believed and confronted him.

[quote]it very well looks like it could be that they no longer believed as they did because pharoah scared them out of it.[/quote]

Read Surah 7:125-126, the sorcerers were willing to die, so this explanation doesn't work.
[quote]it could be some were believing in the first verse. it doesn't mean those who believing in the second verse weren't the same.[/quote]

Are you suggesting the sorcerers were children?
[quote]maybe it could also be that they changed but it's not necessarily, other than to read "they believed" and "they didn't beleive" arguably out of context.[/quote]

That's precisely the point, the Qur'an is vague and apparently in contradiction. To me it demonstrates Muhammad's evolving understanding of the story of Moses.

[mortify]

"And unto Allah maketh prostration whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth of living creatures, and the angels (also) and they are not proud. They fear their Lord above them, and do what they are bidden."
Sura 16:49-50

"And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever."
Sura 2:34


Interestingly enough Iblis is considered a jinn but in the above passage he is numbered among the angles.

[dairygirl4u2c]

can't "the offspring of his people" include those who had originally believed?
his people could have evil sourcerers etc right?

[Winchester]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1651348' date='Sep 9 2008, 09:30 AM']...evil sourcerers...[/quote]Evil sourcerers are those who use wikipedia as a reliable source, right?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1650849' date='Sep 8 2008, 07:21 PM']I never said belief in Islam was rational.[/quote]

Tell me what you do believe. I'm not assuming anything.

Regardless of whether you believe Islam is rational or not, there are Islamic apologists who have written rebuttals to every argument we have against them. I'm not saying they are right, but the arguments are out there if we're willing to be intellectually honest and look for them.

[quote name='mortify' post='1650849' date='Sep 8 2008, 07:21 PM']I'd much rather see your explanation to the contradiction I presented than hear you talk about the existence of contradictions in the Bible. Trying to find faults in Catholicism is not a means of addressing the real problems in the Islamic religion.[/quote]

I don't have an explanation, but I'll bet if you google up some Islamic apologetics sites, you'll find all that information easily enough. I point out the alleged biblical contradictions to show that contradictions in holy books are primarily in the eye of the beholder, not to look for faults in Catholicism. I believe there are none in our faith. But, if I were a convinced Muslim, this would be a very different conversation.

Speaking of which, if you wish to address the problems of Islam, you need to address them with Muslims.

[Saint Therese]

Most of the books of the mormon "scriptures" are clearly just copied from stories in the Bible.

[Terra Pax]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1651398' date='Sep 9 2008, 11:24 AM']Evil sourcerers are those who use wikipedia as a reliable source, right?[/quote]