God And Morality

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1649258' date='Sep 6 2008, 03:32 PM']God cannot command anything contrary to the good, because the good is a natural energy of divinity, which means that the good is not capricious or arbitrary; instead, it is one of the many [i]logoi[/i] of God, and the many [i]logoi[/i] are the one [i]Logos[/i]. In other words, God is the good. Moreover, to focus upon the divine will without at the same time holding that it is bound by the divine nature is contrary to Catholic doctrine.[/quote]
God is the Good.... That seems to be exactly what I said above. And no it is not, contrary to Catholic Doctrine. Catholic Doctrine does not hold that the Divine Will is bound by anything at all, it does hold that one cannot truely seperate the Divine Will from the Divine Nature, nor either from the Divine Intellect, and that any such distinction must be understood to be a distinction made by a finite mind and not a real distinction. God is ...in the word of the 1st Vatican Council "incomprehensable". However that does not help with the original question which I still would answer as above, things are Good because God has said that they are so.

Please direct me to a doctrinal chruch document which declares that God is Bound.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1649258' date='Sep 6 2008, 03:32 PM']God cannot command anything contrary to the good, because the good is a natural energy of divinity, which means that the good is not capricious or arbitrary; instead, it is one of the many [i]logoi[/i] of God, and the many [i]logoi[/i] are the one [i]Logos[/i]. In other words, God is the good. Moreover, to focus upon the divine will without at the same time holding that it is bound by the divine nature is contrary to Catholic doctrine.[/quote]
God is the Good.... That seems to be exactly what I said above. And no it is not, contrary to Catholic Doctrine. Catholic Doctrine does not hold that the Divine Will is bound by anything at all, it does hold that one cannot truely seperate the Divine Will from the Divine Nature, nor either from the Divine Intellect, and that any such distinction must be understood to be a distinction made by a finite mind and not a real distinction. God is ...in the word of the 1st Vatican Council "incomprehensable". However that does not help with the original question which I still would answer as above, things are Good because God has said that they are so.

Please direct me to a doctrinal chruch document which declares that God is Bound.

[Apotheoun]

God wills according to His nature, and so it is His nature – and not His will – that determines or establishes the good. With that said, it follows that God cannot will that human beings practice idolatry, because idolatry is contrary to His nature, nor can He will murder (i.e., the intentional killing of an innocent human being), because such an act is contrary to the good, which is always determined according to His nature. In fact, He cannot will anything contrary to reason ([i]Logos[/i]), because to do so involves the negation of His own being, since God is the [i]Logos[/i] in all things. Finally, the idea that the divine will understood in isolation from the divine nature determines the good in a capricious manner (i.e., a position that is called "voluntarism") has been rejected by the Church because it ultimately involves a denial of what the West calls the "analogia entis," and what the East calls the "analogia energeia," i.e., the fact that there is within created nature an analogical relation, which by definition includes dissimilarity as well, between created nature and God. Pope Benedict spoke about this in his speech at Regensburg when he explained why the Catholic Church rejects the idea that man can ". . . only know God's [i]voluntas ordinata[/i]. [And that] beyond this is the realm of God's freedom, in virtue of which he could have done the opposite of everything he has actually done." [1] In fact this idea – as the Pope points out – is closer to certain stands of thought in Islamic theology, and he goes on to warn against the dangers inherent in this ideological viewpoint, which he says can lead to ". . . the image of a capricious God, who is not even bound to truth and goodness." [2]

Notes:

[1] Pope Benedict XVI, "Meeting with the Representatives of Science," 12 September 2006.
[2] ibid.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1649909' date='Sep 7 2008, 12:54 PM']God wills according to His nature, and so it is His nature – and not His will – that determines or establishes the good. With that said, it follows that God cannot will that human beings practice idolatry, because idolatry is contrary to His nature, nor can He will murder (i.e., the intentional killing of an innocent human being), because such an act is contrary to the good, which is always determined according to His nature. In fact, He cannot will anything contrary to reason ([i]Logos[/i]), because to do so involves the negation of His own being, since God is the [i]Logos[/i] in all things. Finally, the idea that the divine will understood in isolation from the divine nature determines the good in a capricious manner (i.e., a position that is called "voluntarism") has been rejected by the Church because it ultimately involves a denial of what the West calls the "analogia entis," and what the East calls the "analogia energeia," i.e., the fact that there is within created nature an analogical relation, which by definition includes dissimilarity as well, between created nature and God. Pope Benedict spoke about this in his speech at Regensburg when he explained why the Catholic Church rejects the idea that man can ". . . only know God's [i]voluntas ordinata[/i]. [And that] beyond this is the realm of God's freedom, in virtue of which he could have done the opposite of everything he has actually done." [1] In fact this idea – as the Pope points out – is closer to certain stands of thought in Islamic theology, and he goes on to warn against the dangers inherent in this ideological viewpoint, which he says can lead to ". . . the image of a capricious God, who is not even bound to truth and goodness." [2]

Notes:

[1] Pope Benedict XVI, "Meeting with the Representatives of Science," 12 September 2006.
[2] ibid.[/quote]


These are not Doctrinal documents. You said Catholic Doctrine, these statements do not qualify. Please refer me to a Doctrinal document which impinges on the Omnipotence of God and binds His Will.
That said, there is no significant disagreement in what has been said here and what I said above. Lets see if I can manage to structure simply enough for the internet not to get in the way of understanding.


1. God IS
2. God co-exist with creation but is not in creation
3. God therefore is not within time, nor subject to change in anyway
4. Therefore God is truely Eternal
5. God has no composition, He is not assembeled of parts and has no parts, His will, nature, a intellect and the like are not seperate and distinct. We only refer to them in such a manner because our finite minds will not allow otherwise with understanding.
5. Therefore, what God has willed, IS willed, in an absolute sense.
6 This Will cannot be contrary to his nature because there is not real differance between His Nature and His Will----but this as a cannot of Logic, not a cannot of Binding----God, is not bound
7. Therefore, we are able to discover His Nature (in a limited and finite way) by examining what He Wills.
8.Furthermore, because God is not a temporal creature, what He wills now is what He has always willed and it is not subject to alteration...
9.This means what we have learned about His Nature also is not subject to change as His Nature simply IS
10. However, none of this requires that God have the Nature He has, one cannot place requirements on God. God is the origin of all things, the definer of all things. If God Willed that Murder was Good then it would be Good. That would require God to have a differant Nature than He does have, (and I am not saying God changes,) so God does not and will not, and in a strict logical sense only, cannot do such a thing, but it is dangerously arrogant position to say that if God were to Will something it would not be so.

For we [i]are dogmatically [/i] held to believe that God is ALMIGHTY and INCOMPREHENSABLE-- God can do what ever God wills. More to the point what God Wills to Happen Happens, whatever that might be. Since Gods Nature and Will are not actually distinct from one another though they act distinctly His will only acts withing the confinds of His Nature, butthis in no way cn be interpreted to mean that Gods power is in anyway limited, or that He is in anyway limited.

You can look to the Decrees of Vatican I for the Dogmatic statment that God is Almighty and Incomprehensibleamong other things.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Don John of Austria

[Apotheoun]

The faith is not limited to "doctrinal documents." God cannot will something contrary to His own nature. I am sorry to say it but your view of the divine will is basically Islamic, not Catholic.

[Apotheoun]

Being almighty means that God can do with power what can be acheived with power, but it does not mean that God can act contrary to His own nature. The will -- even in God's case -- follows nature, and not the other way around.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1650009' date='Sep 7 2008, 12:54 PM']10. However, none of this requires that God have the Nature He has, one cannot place requirements on God. God is the origin of all things, the definer of all things. [b]If God Willed that Murder was Good then it would be Good.[/b] That would require God to have a differant Nature than He does have, (and I am not saying God changes,) so God does not and will not, and in a strict logical sense only, cannot do such a thing, but it is dangerously arrogant position to say that if God were to Will something it would not be so.[/quote]
God cannot will murder to be moral, and if you really believe that He can then I must confess in all honesty that you and I do not worship the same God, because I worship the God who is the Truth, while you worship a monster that has no essential existence, but is simply a capricious will.

Moreover, as the Pope explained, to deny that God is bound to act according to His nature involves a denial of the analogy of being (or energy) and that is condemned by the Church Fathers, and also by the Latin Church's Fourth Lateran Council.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1650327' date='Sep 7 2008, 09:26 PM']The faith is not limited to "doctrinal documents." God cannot will something contrary to His own nature. I am sorry to say it but your view of the divine will is basically Islamic, not Catholic.[/quote]

So thats code for --- "well I don't have any Doctrinal documents despite the fact that I said it is Catholic Doctrine"

In otherwords it is not Catholic Doctrine it is your interpretation of Doctrines and Dogmas and Catholic Philosophers, which is fine, but that does not mean it is Doctrinal as you claimed.

No my view of the Divine Will is not Islamic, nothing I have said, in anyway is contrary to any Church teaching, [i]in fact I am the only one [/i]who has justified my position with any referance to Church Dogma. If you limit Gods Omnipotent power you are in contradition of the Faith as Defined in Ecumenical Council. When His Holiness says to scientist that God cannot, I am forced to believe that he means connot only in a sense of Logical requirment not in the Sense that God is bound and therefore not Omnipotent, as that would be in contradiction to Revealed Truth.

Please reread my post as you will see that I do not disagree that God cannot act according to his Nature, so long as it is understood as a philosophical and logical distinction and not a real binding on the Divine Will/Power.

If you actually believe that the Godhead is divided into peices and that the Divine Will is somehow distinct from the Divine Nature then you are the one who does not share a Catholic
veiw of God.

If you do indeed understand that such a distinction is only one of Logic to help the finite mind then you should have no objection to what I wrote above.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1650337' date='Sep 7 2008, 09:38 PM']God cannot will murder to be moral, and if you really believe that He can then I must confess in all honesty that you and I do not worship the same God, because I worship the God who is the Truth, while you worship a monster that has no essential existence, but is simply a capricious will.

Moreover, as the Pope explained, to deny that God is bound to act according to His nature involves a denial of the analogy of being (or energy) and that is condemned by the Church Fathers, and also by the Latin Church's Fourth Lateran Council.[/quote]


please reread my post--- You will see I did not say that God can act contrary to His nature. I think I am beginning to understand what the problem in the correlation of our philosophies but I will have to think about how to explian it. I think it has to do with how you Understand Eternal vs how I understand it.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1650337' date='Sep 7 2008, 09:38 PM']God cannot will murder to be moral, and if you really believe that He can then I must confess in all honesty that you and I do not worship the same God, because I worship the God who is the Truth, while you worship a monster that has no essential existence, but is simply a capricious will.

Moreover, as the Pope explained, to deny that God is bound to act according to His nature involves a denial of the analogy of being (or energy) and that is condemned by the Church Fathers, and also by the Latin Church's Fourth Lateran Council.[/quote]

And apotheoun, bring it down a notch... I could just as easily say I worship an omnipotent God who has created from nothing and you worship a pitiful weakling bound by external forces and ideas external to himself. But that would be just as silly as what you are saying. Reread what I said above, and read it with out trying to dissect it first. read it for what I am saying not what you think I am saying.