God And Morality

[Hassan]

reguarding moral actions

does God will it because it is moral, or is it moral because God wills it?

[HisChildForever]

We already have a morality thread. Is this really necessary? Just post your questions there.

[Apotheoun]

God wills a particular action because it is good, and the action in question is good because God is the [i]logoi[/i] (i.e., reasons) in the many created things.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1642827' date='Aug 30 2008, 08:32 PM']God wills a particular action because it is good, and the action in question is good because God is the [i]logoi[/i] (i.e., reasons) in the many created things.[/quote]
That's a good answer, thank you.

I've always been under the impression that the logic was circular because it would be demostrated as: God wills it because he is all good, and it is good because God wills it.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1642823' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:30 PM']We already have a morality thread. Is this really necessary? Just post your questions there.[/quote]


I did, it was not really adressed.

[Apotheoun]

The Eastern Fathers believed that created nature exists within God, albeit not in the divine essence, which is utterly transcendent and hetero-ousios in relation to the world, but in the divine energy. Now because creation exists within God it follows that the good is fixed within created nature, and that is why the fall of Adam did not corrupt human nature, but only clouded man's personal enactment of his nature, which itself remains innately good.

Ultimately, salvation (i.e., theosis) involves the reintegration of man's personal use of his nature, with the good that is inherently present and fixed within his nature, and which always directs him to his true end, i.e., God.

Edited August 31, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1642880' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:47 PM']The Eastern Fathers believed that created nature exists in God, albeit not in the divine essence, which is utterly transcendent and hetero-ousios in relation to the world, but in the divine energy. Now because creation exists within God it follows that the good is fixed within created nature, and that is why the fall of Adam did not corrupt human nature, but only clouded man's personal enactment of his nature, which itself remains innately good.

Ultimately, salvation (i.e., theosis) involves the reintegration of man's personal use of his nature, with the good that is inherently present and fixed within his nature, and which always directs him to his true end, i.e., God.[/quote]


This is why I like Eastern Catholicism over Western

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1642885' date='Aug 30 2008, 08:47 PM']This is why I like Eastern Catholicism over Western[/quote]
I agree.

Excellent explanation.

[Don John of Austria]

It is moral because God wills it. God is the origin and arbiter of Goodness. His divine will makes it Good. So yes if God willed that killing 3 year olds was Good it would be Good. However that would not happen because God does not change, since He does not change, what He has willed- is willed- therefore there is no chance of such a thing occuring.

That is my very uneastern answer.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1647259' date='Sep 4 2008, 10:51 AM']It is moral because God wills it. God is the origin and arbiter of Goodness. His divine will makes it Good. So yes if God willed that killing 3 year olds was Good it would be Good. However that would not happen because God does not change, since He does not change, what He has willed- is willed- therefore there is no chance of such a thing occuring.

That is my very uneastern answer.[/quote]
To me, it just seems circular, it doesn't really give any insight into what goodness is, only that God is goodness and goodness is whatever God wills. It seems arbitrary.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1647642' date='Sep 4 2008, 07:44 PM']To me, it just seems circular, it doesn't really give any insight into what goodness is, only that God is goodness and goodness is whatever God wills. It seems arbitrary.[/quote]



Well I fail to see how it is circular in anyway... it is in fact the most linear of logic.

God is the origin of everything, He is the Creator, He is the Prime Mover, the Causation of everything, He created from nothing, all that is is His handiwork. Therefore what he deifnes as Good is Good... and it is, in a strict sense, arbitrary I suppose... as I said, He is the ARBITER of Goodness.


The idea of Goodness with out God is madness, there are no ideas without God, there are no forms without God, God is the origin of all things, it is He that gives meaning to all things, one can learn nothing about Goodness with out learning about God.

If you want to learn about what Gododness is, study what God has said it is.

[peach_cube]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1647657' date='Sep 4 2008, 09:16 PM']Well I fail to see how it is circular in anyway... it is in fact the most linear of logic.

God is the origin of everything, He is the Creator, He is the Prime Mover, the Causation of everything, He created from nothing, all that is is His handiwork. Therefore what he deifnes as Good is Good... and it is, in a strict sense, arbitrary I suppose... as I said, He is the ARBITER of Goodness.


The idea of Goodness with out God is madness, there are no ideas without God, there are no forms without God, God is the origin of all things, it is He that gives meaning to all things, one can learn nothing about Goodness with out learning about God.

If you want to learn about what Gododness is, study what God has said it is.[/quote]

This is why I like western Catholicism.

[Apotheoun]

Anything that makes it sound as if God could will something contrary to His nature must be avoided. Thus, although God's will and His nature are distinct, they are at the same time inseparable. In other words, God cannot do things that are contrary to His nature, which is infinitely good, because that which is contrary to His nature has no real essential being.

Moreover, if one focuses simply upon the divine will in isolation from the divine nature and energy, one posits the false idea that the good is simply arbitrary. Now -- of course -- as Christians we know that God is bound by His nature, which is in itself good, while also recognizing the fact that this idea involves no limitation upon God, because evil has not essential existence and therefore it has no proper relation to the divinity.

Ultimately, ideological systems (like nominalism) that focus too much upon the divine will in isolation from the divine nature and energy succumb to moral relativism.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1647973' date='Sep 5 2008, 09:30 AM']Anything that makes it sound as if God could will something contrary to His nature must be avoided. Thus, although God's will and His nature are distinct, they are at the same time inseparable. In other words, God cannot do things that are contrary to His nature, which is infinitely good, because that which is contrary to His nature has no real essential being.

Moreover, if one focuses simply upon the divine will in isolation from the divine nature and energy, one posits the false idea that the good is simply arbitrary. Now -- of course -- as Christians we know that God is bound by His nature, which is in itself good, while also recognizing the fact that this idea involves no limitation upon God, because evil has not essential existence and therefore it has no proper relation to the divinity.

Ultimately, ideological systems (like nominalism) that focus too much upon the divine will in isolation from the divine nature and energy succumb to moral relativism.[/quote]


I do not have time for a full response to this, however, I will say I strongly object to the joining of the words [i]God [/i]and [i]cannot[/i]. God [i]does not [/i]act in certian ways, but He is not bound, ever, by anything. God IS and because He IS, as opposed to was , is, and will be, His Will does not change. But that is the extent of what we can say regarding the matter. Evil is that which opposes God, its existance is only it's opposition to what IS, however, the idea that God's Will is bound in anyway is unacceptable. The Good is what God has determined it to be, nothing more, nothing less, it has no exitanance independent of God's Will.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Don John of Austria

[Apotheoun]

God cannot command anything contrary to the good, because the good is a natural energy of divinity, which means that the good is not capricious or arbitrary; instead, it is one of the many [i]logoi[/i] of God, and the many [i]logoi[/i] are the one [i]Logos[/i]. In other words, God is the good. Moreover, to focus upon the divine will without at the same time holding that it is bound by the divine nature is contrary to Catholic doctrine.

Edited September 6, 2008 by Apotheoun