KnightofChrist Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1642938' date='Aug 30 2008, 11:19 PM']would you like to move on?[/quote] God did not violate anything in himself or the external law, which God knows to be true, by testing Abraham. Whilst God knew Isaac would not die, and he told Abraham to kill Isaac, this does not conclude God was deceitful. God did not have malicious motives to damage Abraham in any way, God's purpose was to test Abraham in order to prove his faithfulness. We must keep in mind God's earlier promise to Abraham that his son Isaac would be Abraham's heir. Clearly Abraham knew this, therefor he must have known Isaac would not have been killed. Isaac had to remain alive for his heir to become a blessing to all nations. Abraham also knew without doubt that he and his son would return back together from the mountain. (Genesis 22:5) Abraham could not have brought Isaac back had he killed him. There is no deception here, just souls who do not understand that God tested Abraham. Edited August 31, 2008 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1642967' date='Aug 30 2008, 11:31 PM']We must keep in mind God's earlier promise to Abraham that his son Isaac would be Abraham's heir. Clearly Abraham knew this, therefor he must have known Isaac would not have been killed. Isaac had to remain alive for his heir to become a blessing to all nations.[/quote] That's what I said. Anyway. Hassan was so kind as to announce his departure by making a thread in Open Mic. Instead of humbly providing a simple post here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Ah, well that's ok, I wouldn't worry about it... I just wonder if he truly wanted a answer to his question or was it just a "gotcha' type of "question"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1642981' date='Aug 30 2008, 11:40 PM']Ah, well that's ok, I wouldn't worry about it... I just wonder if he truly wanted a answer to his question or was it just a "gotcha' type of "question"?[/quote] He was being smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach_cube Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 With regards to the "sacrifice of Isaac" we must remember that Isaac was believed to be somewhere form 18 to 37 years old when he was offered up on Mount Moriah. He would have presumably been able to resist his elderly father if he wanted (Abraham was 99 when Isaac was conceived). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1642776' date='Aug 30 2008, 08:39 PM']What does that mean?[/quote] iawtc=i agree with the comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abercius24 Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Semalsia' post='1642620' date='Aug 30 2008, 06:50 PM']Assuming God exists. Assuming we have access. Assuming God isn't malevolent.[/quote] We Catholics already address these assumptions, which would move us into 3 other debates. Edited August 31, 2008 by abercius24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autumn Dusk Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 morals in one way or another are built into the very nature of a human being. It is a higher nature than animals. Animals may adopt other's offspring, etc, but you wouldn't see an adult dog bringing food to a lame adult dog in nature. They survive by self-preservation. They don't have speech and they don't do other things humans do. Even in the most vicious and maddening societies that don't know God there still is morals...a kind of natrual order that sets up the way of living. It almost proves that God exists...that everyone is born with an innate set of morals that can only be formed and not removed (unless by mental defect or disease) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 I have a question. If morals come from God, then why is God so violent in the Old Testament? Killing all the firstborns of Egypt? Ordering deaths of those who sin? It even promotes slavery. Have we just disregarded that part of the Bible because it does not apply to our current time? Why is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakeYouThink Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 [quote name='Kitty' post='1644322' date='Sep 1 2008, 01:21 PM']I have a question. If morals come from God, then why is God so violent in the Old Testament? Killing all the firstborns of Egypt? Ordering deaths of those who sin? It even promotes slavery. Have we just disregarded that part of the Bible because it does not apply to our current time? Why is that?[/quote] First, the Jews are God's children, or were during the old testament. If someone was harming you, would you think highly of your parents not protecting you? Second, where as God has given us an example of Christ, to live as a sacrifice to others and the holy spirit to help us live that out, in the old testament, no such example was given. So, wicked men, women, and children needed to be made an example of, because if you're not going to submit to God, well, you're just going to become violent and bring harm to people. Third, the old testament had examples of slavery. But slavery still happens today, in different ways. You're a slave to your bank if you get a mortage, or they will own your home. You're a slave to your credit card company, unless you pay your bills. If you don't, there are serious repercussions if you don't pay your bills. Why am I bringing this up. All slavery in the old testament was about owing money to someone. So we shifted you being a slave for hard labour to a slave to debt collectors and banks, so little has changed, only what you have to do to pay off your bills. Or would you have people in the old testament who owed people money go off the hook, or should they have created a debt collecting industry? If there is no consequence to not paying your bills, like losing your children or yourself to slavery, why pay your bills? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autumn Dusk Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 [quote name='Kitty' post='1644322' date='Sep 1 2008, 02:21 PM']I have a question. If morals come from God, then why is God so violent in the Old Testament? Killing all the firstborns of Egypt? Ordering deaths of those who sin? It even promotes slavery. Have we just disregarded that part of the Bible because it does not apply to our current time? Why is that?[/quote] you're looking at the old testiment from a 21 century point of view. God didn't approve of corrupt slavery, but he did encourage gracious servitude. And its like he was a new parent. He had these adopted kids, Adam and Eve who he gave everything to. They broke the rules. So he made prophets to bring his adopted children back to himself. He made another covenant with them....which they proceded to also disregard. Then he sent his son and made the new covant. Its not that it can be disregarded or anything, but its just how god delt with a certian people of a certian time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 Mark and Autumn - great posts. [quote name='Kitty' post='1644322' date='Sep 1 2008, 01:21 PM']I have a question. If morals come from God, then why is God so violent in the Old Testament? Killing all the firstborns of Egypt? Ordering deaths of those who sin? It even promotes slavery. Have we just disregarded that part of the Bible because it does not apply to our current time? Why is that?[/quote] You'll find similar questions asking the Questions/Answers section of the site. [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=77151&hl=noah"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...151&hl=noah[/url] [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=81403&hl=noah"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...403&hl=noah[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1642061' date='Aug 29 2008, 10:51 PM']I know some wonderfully moral people who are not religious.[/quote] But how would their morality be defined if not by the Moral Law written " on every mans heart". Without God then all men are the arbiters of morality, and if that is the case then there is no morality at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 [quote name='Kitty' post='1644322' date='Sep 1 2008, 01:21 PM']I have a question. If morals come from God, then why is God so violent in the Old Testament? Killing all the firstborns of Egypt? Ordering deaths of those who sin? It even promotes slavery. Have we just disregarded that part of the Bible because it does not apply to our current time? Why is that?[/quote] You say these things as if they are immoral? As if violence is in itself immoral... which of course it is not. All things God does are good... destruction of cities, killing the first born etc, etc. these are inherently good because God is the arbiter of GOODNESS, He is the origin of goodness, He is GOODNESS! To try and judge Him be the rules which He has set out for us is like tring to judge a parent by the rules that they have set forth for there infant child... simply not reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majella Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 [quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1647012' date='Sep 4 2008, 05:52 PM']You say these things as if they are immoral? As if violence is in itself immoral... which of course it is not. All things God does are good... destruction of cities, killing the first born etc, etc. these are inherently good because God is the arbiter of GOODNESS, He is the origin of goodness, He is GOODNESS! To try and judge Him be the rules which He has set out for us is like tring to judge a parent by the rules that they have set forth for there infant child... simply not reasonable.[/quote] God is all good. He sometimes allows evil , whether to change us, to reprimand us, to bring about a greater good, we don't know! God DOES NOT order the killing of people, babies, etc! It are our sins which brought evil into the world, not God!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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