Why Must Morals Come From God And Not Anywhere Else?

[Semalsia]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1642492' date='Aug 30 2008, 07:18 PM']The Creator God being the supreme authority in the universe gives meaning and purpose to life, and defines such things as morality. What I take from this thread is the question 'Can atheist or agnostics have morals?'

The answer to that is yes, in a way they can. However whatever morals they claim to have are only subjective, and relative. Which are subject to change when someone or another group who are stronger do not share the 'morals' of that atheist/agnostic person or group.

Group A may believe murder is immoral, group B may believe murder is not immoral, Group B murders all the members of Group A, so murder would no longer be immoral, but good. And there would be nothing 'wrong' with that without the supreme authority of God, because we would be mere animals, and which ever animal is strongest defines what is 'right' and what is 'wrong.' Without God there would be no right or wrong, only what some animal defines right or wrong, and whenever he or she is replaced, so too could their morality.

This goes back to the topic I posted some time ago, that without God, [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/lofiversion/index.php/t55131.html"]Was Hitler Right?[/url] Without God the thought that what Hitler did was wrong or even evil, would be simple subjective, and relative opinion, not fact.[/quote]

I don't agree with moral relativism, but I'll admit that morality can be somewhat elusive.

Murder can be considered objectively wrong on the grounds that it causes objective harm. Whether people believe it to be wrong or right would not change this. I would hold this as an axiom.

[quote name='Winchester' post='1642493' date='Aug 30 2008, 07:20 PM']In practice, the decisions of man and society are arbitrary. This is a function of free will. If there is a god, then there is a standard from which man and society can deviate. If there is no god, then there is no objective moral good. Let us define good as that which moves in the proper direction, to the proper ends. A vehicle, for instance, has a purpose imbued by man. We can agree on this. It has this purpose because we put this purpose upon it. The vehicle could, if it became intelligent, define its own purpose, would have the choice of deviating from its original purpose. It would be violating the purpose for which it was created. In this, the purpose man gave to the vehicle is the good, the end, of the vehicle. Anything deviating from this is the evil.

In the atheist worldview, we are vehicles without a creator. We therefore have no "purpose," and so there is no standard from which we can deviate. There is neither good nor evil but what we define and in the end it comes down to each individual to define morality. He can choose to group togethere and decide upon a common "good," but the term does not mean the same thing as it does when discussing a good as imbued upon man by an outside force--a good which man can choose to violate or obeym but not change. Without a god, there can be agreements, leglislation, authority, and much of it will benefit people and will be functional and pleasant to people.[/quote]

It would follow then that a 'smart bomb' would be doing evil if it decided to deviate from it's purpose to destroy cities full of human beings. You have defined good as obedience and evil as disobedience. You have not given reason to think why this standard from God is good, but instead you have defined, in fact, ANY standard as good. Not only does it make your post non-explanatory but also highly disturbing as you are advocating a world where it is the moral duty to obey an order no matter what the order is.

[quote name='Winchester' post='1642493' date='Aug 30 2008, 07:20 PM']All things that are not God are creatures (in a sense. Not an animal or a person, but a thing of creation. A part of creation. In this sense, I here use creature, excluding personhood as a neccesity to be a creature. Time, also, would be a creature). No creature has existence independent of God. So yes, actions would be divided into good and evil by God's fiat. Seeing as they haven't any existence without Him, that's fine. Where that is different from man is that man did not create the universe, did not create himself nor his capacity for actions, which may be right or wrong. Whether atheist or no, we can agree that man did not originate the universe, himself included.[/quote]

Morality does not follow from the creation of the universe. Nor does it follow from the creation of life. What does follow is power and you seem to be handing the right to define morality to the most powerful being.

Again, this not explain why God is good, but it does show a disturbing world-view.

Edited August 30, 2008 by Semalsia

[Semalsia]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1642600' date='Aug 30 2008, 10:23 PM']So it makes sense that, if we have access to a being who is impartial and omniscient (can see all things) -- and even better if that being cares for each and every one of us -- then that being would be the best source of guidance for mankind's actions. And by definition we call this being God. Therefore God is the most perfect source of moral authority for mankind.[/quote]

Assuming God exists. Assuming we have access. Assuming God isn't malevolent.

Edited August 30, 2008 by Semalsia

[princessgianna]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1642302' date='Aug 30 2008, 03:18 AM']What if I said, the holy ghost has taught me attitudes similar to Catholic Doctrines, like NFP, because it is not up to me to decide how many children God wants for me. . .

There are plenty of doctrines that make absolute sense through the holy spirit, and yet. . . I am not Catholic, only someone who listens to the spirit and what God has taught me.

I simply believe, if you let go of your control over yourself and your life, by just asking God on his opinion on things and submitting to where the spirit moves you towards, then. . . you will live a moral life every moment of your life, and the spirit will testify to you exactly what it needs to for you to eventually make it to heaven.

It all comes down to, submission and humility. And after that, yes, God will open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing you can't hope to contain.[/quote]

I am not trying to offend you but why are you not catholic if it makes sense to you?

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='princessgianna' post='1642660' date='Aug 30 2008, 07:39 PM']I am not trying to offend you but why are you not catholic if it makes sense to you?[/quote]

Because other things don't make sense at all. . .

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1642664' date='Aug 30 2008, 07:44 PM']Because other things don't make sense at all. . .[/quote]

Start a new thread!

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1642677' date='Aug 30 2008, 08:02 PM']Start a new thread! [/quote]

I am comfortable with where I am.

Some of the Catholic Church doctrines make perfect sense, if you think about letting God be God and being aware men are just men.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1642558' date='Aug 30 2008, 05:30 PM']If someone who doesn't believe in God does good deeds, he doesn't do it because he hopes he'll get a good afterlife, he does it because he knows he'll get a good life.[/quote]

We do not do good deeds for our neighbors because we want to get into Heaven. We do good deeds because we love God [b]and[/b] our neighbors. We put God and neighbor before ourselves. Any Christian who has this selfish mindset while helping others (helping someone so [i]I[/i] get into Heaven) does not know Christ.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1642690' date='Aug 30 2008, 07:25 PM']We do not do good deeds for our neighbors because we want to get into Heaven. We do good deeds because we love God [b]and[/b] our neighbors. We put God and neighbor before ourselves. Any Christian who has this selfish mindset while helping others (helping someone so [i]I[/i] get into Heaven) does not know Christ.[/quote]

I noticed that after you made a point of asking me to reply to your post, you have utterly ignored my reply.

odd.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1642738' date='Aug 30 2008, 08:15 PM']I noticed that after you made a point of asking me to reply to your post, you have utterly ignored my reply.

odd.[/quote]

Hassan,

You are too obvious.

Do all you trolls come out during election times to harass good people.

She has a right not to bother talking to you.

[Hassan]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1642739' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:17 PM']Hassan,

You are too obvious.

Do all you trolls come out during election times to harass good people.[/quote]

I am not a "troll" I can, do, and desire substantive discussion. HCF made a point of impugning my motives and then asked me to remember to respond to her post, I did, and she has ignored it.

I find that odd

[quote]She has a right not to bother talking to you.[/quote]

Of course she does.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1642743' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:19 PM']I am not a "troll" I can, do, and desire substantive discussion. HCF made a point of impugning my motives and then asked me to remember to respond to her post, I did, and she has ignored it.

I find that odd



Of course she does.[/quote]

Than don't make demands on her.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1642106' date='Aug 29 2008, 10:31 PM']God is the absolute good. Morals (as we can all agree upon) are generally defined as principles of right conduct. Since "right" is generally "good" then we can say "morals" are "good" and since goodness comes from God alone, it makes sense that He created them. I also like to say that the "conscience" helps us identify what is "right" and what is "wrong". (And, when we do chose "wrong", it is the "conscience" that hits us with guilt.) It is possible that the Holy Spirit [i]is[/i] our "conscience" or the Holy Spirit [i]guides[/i] our "conscience".

So, say that God does not exist, or that He is the great clock-maker. Does this mean that it is up to humankind to determine right and wrong? Certainly, some humans will not agree on a set moral code.

This moral code has been instituted by God.[/quote]

iawtc

And, just because some members of the human race fail to recognize God as the absolute Good, and all goodness springs from Him, doesn't mean that suddenly God disappears and doesn't exist in their lives. The reason those who do not believe are even capable to love and be loved and know right from wrong, is because God believes in them...created them, is madly in love with them and showers good upon them regardless of what they believe.

Edited August 31, 2008 by dominicansoul

[Hassan]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1642745' date='Aug 30 2008, 08:20 PM']Than don't make demands on her.[/quote]

I have made the same request she made of me last night.

[HisChildForever]

I called you out on that because you were active on the forum, yet not responding to my post. I went to bed (as noted in the other thread) and while you did post, when I woke up this morning I saw a bunch of posts. Instead of giving you a poor reply, and instead of quickly glancing though the other great posts made, I decided to haul myself off to work for my 8-hour shift. I have been preoccupied and have yet to get around to it. You can argue that I have posted since, but those were hardly deep or thoughtful in the philosophical sense. Now that I have explained myself - and feeling ridiculous for having done so - I will gladly respond.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1642252' date='Aug 30 2008, 01:29 AM']Yes, Kierkegaard wrote a beautifull novel on this. He had to jumop through hoops to find any justification

No he did not offer up a Holocaust as the Torah prescribes, you can transpose your Christian assumptions on it if you wish, however that does not change the text.[/quote]

That is fine, dismiss my careful explanation as a Christian assumption. Even though I [u]am[/u] the Christian and I [u]have[/u] first-hand experience as a Christian (where you do not), I really have no credibility explaining Christianity. If you want to disagree with what I just shared with you, hey, that's fine with me. But please, there's nothing wrong in being willing to understand, even if you disagree.

[quote]Yes, because God had led him to believe hw would be killing his own son[/quote]

Yes, because it was a test. Which has been clarified already.

[quote]You should read "Fear and Trembling", that's not a shot, I just think you may like it. Unless you alreay have read it[/quote]

I don't know. You seem unreceptive to everything we've all said here, so why should I be receptive to you? Unless you're into double standards, of course.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1642746' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:21 PM']iawtc[/quote]

What does that mean?

[quote name='Hassan' post='1642749' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:23 PM']I have made the same request she made of me last night.[/quote]

Great. Now that we're done being so trivial as to discuss my absence, let's continue.