Justin86 Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='Hassan' post='1642356' date='Aug 30 2008, 11:33 PM']It does not mean anything absolutly(thank you Mr. Sartre ). I don't claim that my attempts to reduce suffering in the world is some objective, transcendent good. I would love it if it were though.[/quote] So basically, you concede your philosophy has less answers to offer than Christianity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='Justin86' post='1642358' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:37 AM']So basically, you concede your philosophy has less answers to offer than Christianity?[/quote] That is a very vague question. What do you mean by "philosophy"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin86 Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 And you wonder why everyone here accuses you of dodging questions. "What philosophy" , the one you've been arguing for this whole thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakeYouThink Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1642304' date='Aug 30 2008, 02:21 AM']You said that you ask for God to lead you, and that's all you need. Well, so do all the other Christians, and they don't all agree on what is right and don't necessarily agree with what you view is the truth. Either they don't truly believe, God sends mixed messages, or there is no God.[/quote] Or option 4, they are all on varying degrees of submission in a variety of different areas. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='Justin86' post='1642370' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:54 AM']And you wonder why everyone here accuses you of dodging questions. "What philosophy" , the one you've been arguing for this whole thread![/quote] Philosophically I fall in the Anglo-Analytic school. And no, that absolutly does not have answers to the vast scope of question that a religion can adress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 30, 2008 Author Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='Winchester' post='1642330' date='Aug 30 2008, 07:31 AM']God is The Good. Anything ordered toward Him is, by definition, Good. He sets the rules for our behavior. Yes, people can set morals, but they are going to change, with moods, with the death of the originator. We can figure out what works best for humanity. We get things like modern slavery, sawing off of heads and whatnot. Pragmatism is what we get with human morality. A morality made by a creature is not really real. It does not exist of itself, whereas the Good exists. So individuals may dreate their own codes, may cause them to be maintained, but the moral code so set down by individuals has no existence of itself.[/quote] That doesn't make sense. Things are good because God says they are. But what makes what he says "good"? The fact that he is good. That's circular reasoning. That still makes what is "good" an arbitrary definition based on "God." In other words, the difference between what non believers have as morals and what believers have is that believers get to make up arbitary definitions of "good" because God is good and anything God says is good then. Makes sense to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 30, 2008 Author Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1642375' date='Aug 30 2008, 08:58 AM']Or option 4, they are all on varying degrees of submission in a variety of different areas. . .[/quote] If they don't fully submit, then they are not doing God's will, and that means they are not true believers. God doesn't want you to "kind of" do something, he wants you to follow his will, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakeYouThink Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 (edited) [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1642430' date='Aug 30 2008, 12:04 PM']If they don't fully submit, then they are not doing God's will, and that means they are not true believers. God doesn't want you to "kind of" do something, he wants you to follow his will, right?[/quote] If that is true, then I am damned to hell myself. But since I know God much better than you do, I can say, well call every man a liar and God truth. We all are on different growth levels with God. It's not like God downloads everything we need to be in the instant we decide to give our lives to him, but it is a learning process. Once upon a time, I thought birth control should be something discussed by husband and wife, but now, I don't believe we should make that decision, and that we should allow God to use the union between husband and wife to create as many children as he desires. Doesn't mean I was in sin, but that I had one more thing to consider to submit to him on. So, you must think that being a Christian is all about obeying the rules, and nothing about learning and growing. . . Edited August 30, 2008 by MakeYouThink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 30, 2008 Author Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1642432' date='Aug 30 2008, 11:09 AM']If that is true, then I am damned to hell myself. But since I know God much better than you do, I can say, well call every man a liar and God truth. We all are on different growth levels with God. It's not like God downloads everything we need to be in the instant we decide to give our lives to him, but it is a learning process. Once upon a time, I thought birth control should be something discussed by husband and wife, but now, I don't believe we should make that decision, and that we should allow God to use the union between husband and wife to create as many children as he desires. Doesn't mean I was in sin, but that I had one more thing to consider to submit to him on. So, you must think that being a Christian is all about obeying the rules, and nothing about learning and growing. . .[/quote] Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not against God's will. Being ignorant of something doesn't give you a free pass. One should strive to be in the truth completely, don't you agree? But this still comes back to what I said. No Christian is going to say they are ignorant of anything, they all claim to be in "full truth." The Catholic Church says it's the full and complete truth, and you are not Catholic. Who is right? They say you will go to hell if you aren't part of the Church. How do you reconcile this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakeYouThink Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1642433' date='Aug 30 2008, 12:11 PM']Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not against God's will. Being ignorant of something doesn't give you a free pass. One should strive to be in the truth completely, don't you agree? But this still comes back to what I said. No Christian is going to say they are ignorant of anything, they all claim to be in "full truth." The Catholic Church says it's the full and complete truth, and you are not Catholic. Who is right? They say you will go to hell if you aren't part of the Church. How do you reconcile this?[/quote] I don't proclaim to understand the full truth. That is way to big for me. Jesus is the only truth, the only way, the only life, and so I submit to him. You see, you are getting all caught up in 'obeying the rules', and maybe that is why you fell away. Christianity is not, and never shall be, an obey the rules way of life. What is important to God, what he values is [quote]The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.[/quote] That is what God wants. Not all the sacrifices we make, because to sacrifice without the right heart is an abomination to him. He wants a broken and contrite heart, one that says, Lord, teach me that I should not sin against thee, because I am a sinner and I can't live holy on my own. So, it is not a knowledge thing that saves you, but a matter of what your heart is. With a humble heart, as you learn, you will change to please God, and that is what God is looking for, someone who has a proper heart to be humble! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 30, 2008 Author Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1642438' date='Aug 30 2008, 11:22 AM']I don't proclaim to understand the full truth. That is way to big for me. Jesus is the only truth, the only way, the only life, and so I submit to him. You see, you are getting all caught up in 'obeying the rules', and maybe that is why you fell away. Christianity is not, and never shall be, an obey the rules way of life. What is important to God, what he values is That is what God wants. Not all the sacrifices we make, because to sacrifice without the right heart is an abomination to him. He wants a broken and contrite heart, one that says, Lord, teach me that I should not sin against thee, because I am a sinner and I can't live holy on my own. So, it is not a knowledge thing that saves you, but a matter of what your heart is. With a humble heart, as you learn, you will change to please God, and that is what God is looking for, someone who has a proper heart to be humble![/quote] That's all great, but you're still avoiding what I'm asking. How can you claim that all you need is to be "guided" by God when every Christian is "guided by God" and they arrive at different conclusions. According to Catholics, not going to Mass is a mortal sin which damns you to hell if you do not confess it to a priest. They arrived at this idea because they too are "guided by God." I assume you disagree with their belief, and you too are "guided by God." You have absolutely no way of showing that your guidance is any more correct than theirs. Actually, no offense, but theirs is more believable because they have historic evidende for their Church. However, in reality, we would call it emotion and reasoning when you come upon some conclusion, but if you're religious, you get to apparently call it "God" and that makes you right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1642426' date='Aug 30 2008, 12:54 PM']That doesn't make sense. Things are good because God says they are. But what makes what he says "good"? The fact that he is good. That's circular reasoning. That still makes what is "good" an arbitrary definition based on "God." In other words, the difference between what non believers have as morals and what believers have is that believers get to make up arbitary definitions of "good" because God is good and anything God says is good then. Makes sense to me [/quote] Wrong. God is the Creator. God sets the rules. Saying He defines good is circular reasoning is like saying that offsides is offsides because the rulebooks says it's offsides. Those are the rules. Further note that is used "The Good." Without God, there is no universe. Good is His concept, entirely and only He can sustain it. The point is that without objective morals (humans are incapable of creating ideas that maintain themselves. They can lay down standards, but the standards have meaning only by human adherence, they are not really real), but those standards are arbitrary in and of themselves. If there is no rule outside that which man makes himself, then there is no rule. Without God, murder is not objectively murder. We have have legislation, codes of conduct, ethical standards, but morality as something objective, does not exist. I understand your argument, but you're arguing about human behavior. So people can claim that whatever God says is good and then put words in God's mouth. No poo. Fact is, if you are the creator of something and maintain it, you make the rules, and your rules within that creation are the good. That's not circular. It's linear. The circular of which you speak is the human application of God's rules. You are starting with the premise that God does not exist. (intentionally or no, but you are). There can be no standard if there is no one to create the standard. There can be no one set of morals (Morality as it has been understood throughout human history), coming from multiple minds. [i]In effect[/i], we can treat objective morality as we would the changing values and ethics of society, but a morality set down by a God can be violated no matter one's interpretation. Murder is murder, even if you don't get caught, because it violates the moral order, which exists of itself apart from man's definition. In a godless world, murder is murder if you get caught, because standards set by man exist only by action of man. In this case, the justice system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 30, 2008 Author Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='Winchester' post='1642446' date='Aug 30 2008, 11:50 AM']Wrong. God is the Creator. God sets the rules. Saying He defines good is circular reasoning is like saying that offsides is offsides because the rulebooks says it's offsides. Those are the rules. Further note that is used "The Good." Without God, there is no universe. Good is His concept, entirely and only He can sustain it. The point is that without objective morals (humans are incapable of creating ideas that maintain themselves. They can lay down standards, but the standards have meaning only by human adherence, they are not really real), but those standards are arbitrary in and of themselves. If there is no rule outside that which man makes himself, then there is no rule. Without God, murder is not objectively murder. We have have legislation, codes of conduct, ethical standards, but morality as something objective, does not exist. I understand your argument, but you're arguing about human behavior. So people can claim that whatever God says is good and then put words in God's mouth. No poo. Fact is, if you are the creator of something and maintain it, you make the rules, and your rules within that creation are the good. That's not circular. It's linear. The circular of which you speak is the human application of God's rules. You are starting with the premise that God does not exist. (intentionally or no, but you are). There can be no standard if there is no one to create the standard. There can be no one set of morals (Morality as it has been understood throughout human history), coming from multiple minds. [i]In effect[/i], we can treat objective morality as we would the changing values and ethics of society, but a morality set down by a God can be violated no matter one's interpretation. Murder is murder, even if you don't get caught, because it violates the moral order, which exists of itself apart from man's definition. In a godless world, murder is murder if you get caught, because standards set by man exist only by action of man. In this case, the justice system.[/quote] The problem I have is that you are saying two things. One, that God is all good, and two, that the reason why something is good is because it is willed by God. How can God be all good if the definition of good is completely dependent on what God wills? How do we know X is good? Because God willed X. Well how do we know that God willing X is good? Because he is all good. Well why is he all good? Because he wills good. But what is good? Whatever God wills. How do we know God wills good? He is all good. That's circular logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1642453' date='Aug 30 2008, 02:03 PM']The problem I have is that you are saying two things. One, that God is all good, and two, that the reason why something is good is because it is willed by God. How can God be all good if the definition of good is completely dependent on what God wills? How do we know X is good? Because God willed X. Well how do we know that God willing X is good? Because he is all good. Well why is he all good? Because he wills good. But what is good? Whatever God wills. How do we know God wills good? He is all good. That's circular logic.[/quote] I said God is The Good. Your second paragraph deals with human understanding and support of God's law. You've formulated the argument, which I never advanced, to make it circular. It's not my argument, it's your version of it. It resembles mine in that it has some of the same words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 30, 2008 Author Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='Winchester' post='1642458' date='Aug 30 2008, 12:18 PM']I said God is The Good. Your second paragraph deals with human understanding and support of God's law. You've formulated the argument, which I never advanced, to make it circular. It's not my argument, it's your version of it. It resembles mine in that it has some of the same words.[/quote] Why is God "The Good?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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