Fidei Defensor Posted August 30, 2008 Author Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1642106' date='Aug 29 2008, 09:31 PM']God is the absolute good. Morals (as we can all agree upon) are generally defined as principles of right conduct. Since "right" is generally "good" then we can say "morals" are "good" and since goodness comes from God alone, it makes sense that He created them. I also like to say that the "conscience" helps us identify what is "right" and what is "wrong". (And, when we do chose "wrong", it is the "conscience" that hits us with guilt.) It is possible that the Holy Spirit [i]is[/i] our "conscience" or the Holy Spirit [i]guides[/i] our "conscience". So, say that God does not exist, or that He is the great clock-maker. Does this mean that it is up to humankind to determine right and wrong? Certainly, some humans will not agree on a set moral code. This moral code has been instituted by God.[/quote] And ironically, even Christians don't agree completely on a moral code, and all of them are claiming that God is the ultimate authority... strange, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princessgianna Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='pan!c139' post='1642034' date='Aug 29 2008, 10:41 PM']Because God is the ultimate authority, it makes sense that everything we know comes from Him - where else would it come from? If it came from anywhere else, it would suggest a being apart from God who also knows everything. In our days, everyone is so brainwashed that right and wrong are no longer clear. They used to be - the fact that killing is evil used to be written in every man's heart, but it seems those lines of right and wrong are blurred because of our society.[/quote] nicely put! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakeYouThink Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1642274' date='Aug 30 2008, 02:25 AM']And ironically, even Christians don't agree completely on a moral code, and all of them are claiming that God is the ultimate authority... strange, huh?[/quote] That's the thing. . . What Christians fail to do is see, the only moral thing to do is let him be the ultimate authority in your life. It comes simply from just letting go and let God. The signature of my posts will say. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. I acknowledge I can't do anything without Jesus. I am nothing without him, I completely empty myself for him! That is my moral code, I will check in with Jesus before I make any decisions! I let him direct me and tell me how to live, because I am nothing. So, I will allow Jesus to be lord, god and savour for me, and I will stay by his side constantly. He tells me how to live. And he gives me a brain to think, hey, God wants us to submit (not be a slave to) him, asking him what we should do in every thing. Some atheists and agnostics think Christians are slaves, but I think of it as a Father/Son relationship. Lord, is it the right time to go to college? Lord, should I post this? Father, can I trust this person. . . It's just asking advice from your dad! And when you do, he becomes the ultimate authority, and therefore the ultimate moral is to let him be the ultimate authority, and saying, I shouldn't do anything that says I know better than him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princessgianna Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1642274' date='Aug 30 2008, 02:25 AM']And ironically, even Christians don't agree completely on a moral code, and all of them are claiming that God is the ultimate authority... strange, huh?[/quote] well you have the original Christian Church (Catholic) some people decided to leave but still believed in Christ! So then they needed to start coming up with their own things and the cycle repeated several times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakeYouThink Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='princessgianna' post='1642290' date='Aug 30 2008, 02:52 AM']well you have the original Christian Church (Catholic) some people decided to leave but still believed in Christ! So then they needed to start coming up with their own things and the cycle repeated several times![/quote] Or, perhaps, they just didn't know that morality is simply, always asking God for advice, so he could lead us, and not go against his perfect ordered creation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 30, 2008 Author Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1642289' date='Aug 30 2008, 12:51 AM']That's the thing. . . What Christians fail to do is see, the only moral thing to do is let him be the ultimate authority in your life. It comes simply from just letting go and let God. The signature of my posts will say. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. I acknowledge I can't do anything without Jesus. I am nothing without him, I completely empty myself for him! That is my moral code, I will check in with Jesus before I make any decisions! I let him direct me and tell me how to live, because I am nothing. So, I will allow Jesus to be lord, god and savour for me, and I will stay by his side constantly. He tells me how to live. And he gives me a brain to think, hey, God wants us to submit (not be a slave to) him, asking him what we should do in every thing. Some atheists and agnostics think Christians are slaves, but I think of it as a Father/Son relationship. Lord, is it the right time to go to college? Lord, should I post this? Father, can I trust this person. . . It's just asking advice from your dad! And when you do, he becomes the ultimate authority, and therefore the ultimate moral is to let him be the ultimate authority, and saying, I shouldn't do anything that says I know better than him![/quote] And yet they will claim that they do ask Jesus to guide them and they do follow him. Who are you to judge that? Because you think you are the most correct and you follow the closest? Other Christians would disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princessgianna Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1642291' date='Aug 30 2008, 02:56 AM']Or, perhaps, they just didn't know that morality is simply, always asking God for advice, so he could lead us, and not go against his perfect ordered creation![/quote] But Christ did leave His Church with St. Peter(who got the keys) to help guide man-kind on earth because yes PRAY to God! but God does work indirectly and through His church! For example God gives me food every day through my totally awesome mother who is a totally awesome cook!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakeYouThink Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1642297' date='Aug 30 2008, 03:01 AM']And yet they will claim that they do ask Jesus to guide them and they do follow him. Who are you to judge that? Because you think you are the most correct and you follow the closest? Other Christians would disagree.[/quote] Wow, you put words in my mouth. I just said, we should all be humble and give it all to God, and now suddenly, according to you, that I believe nobody else does that! Argue my points. Ultimate morality is ultimate submission to God, because God knows what is best for us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princessgianna Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1642297' date='Aug 30 2008, 03:01 AM']And yet they will claim that they do ask Jesus to guide them and they do follow him. Who are you to judge that? Because you think you are the most correct and you follow the closest? Other Christians would disagree.[/quote] I am not to judge yes but i must speak the Truth using words when needed!!! I believe that I hold the Truth so whenever a non catholic questions me of my faith i find the answer and answer them and so far the Catholic Church is the most logical!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakeYouThink Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='princessgianna' post='1642301' date='Aug 30 2008, 02:08 AM']I am not to judge yes but i must speak the Truth using words when needed!!! I believe that I hold the Truth so whenever a non catholic questions me of my faith i find the answer and answer them and so far the Catholic Church is the most logical!![/quote] What if I said, the holy ghost has taught me attitudes similar to Catholic Doctrines, like NFP, because it is not up to me to decide how many children God wants for me. . . There are plenty of doctrines that make absolute sense through the holy spirit, and yet. . . I am not Catholic, only someone who listens to the spirit and what God has taught me. I simply believe, if you let go of your control over yourself and your life, by just asking God on his opinion on things and submitting to where the spirit moves you towards, then. . . you will live a moral life every moment of your life, and the spirit will testify to you exactly what it needs to for you to eventually make it to heaven. It all comes down to, submission and humility. And after that, yes, God will open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing you can't hope to contain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 30, 2008 Author Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1642300' date='Aug 30 2008, 01:08 AM']Wow, you put words in my mouth. I just said, we should all be humble and give it all to God, and now suddenly, according to you, that I believe nobody else does that! Argue my points. Ultimate morality is ultimate submission to God, because God knows what is best for us![/quote] You said that you ask for God to lead you, and that's all you need. Well, so do all the other Christians, and they don't all agree on what is right and don't necessarily agree with what you view is the truth. Either they don't truly believe, God sends mixed messages, or there is no God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin86 Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1642257' date='Aug 30 2008, 02:34 PM']no reward, you just do things you think will make the world a better place.[/quote] Exactly what does it mean to "make the world a better place"? This side keeps arguing that Christians can't agree on morality, and yet they choose as their alternative a philosophy that is even more indecisive and vague on answering moral questions then Christianity. How is that the answer to Christianity's problems? Edited August 30, 2008 by Justin86 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='Justin86' post='1642306' date='Aug 30 2008, 03:25 AM']Exactly what does it mean to "make the world a better place"? [b]This side keeps arguing that Christians can't agree on morality, and yet they choose as their alternative a philosophy that is even more indecisive and vague on answering moral questions then Christianity. [/b] How is that the answer to Christianity's problems?[/quote] Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 God is The Good. Anything ordered toward Him is, by definition, Good. He sets the rules for our behavior. Yes, people can set morals, but they are going to change, with moods, with the death of the originator. We can figure out what works best for humanity. We get things like modern slavery, sawing off of heads and whatnot. Pragmatism is what we get with human morality. A morality made by a creature is not really real. It does not exist of itself, whereas the Good exists. So individuals may dreate their own codes, may cause them to be maintained, but the moral code so set down by individuals has no existence of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='Justin86' post='1642306' date='Aug 30 2008, 02:25 AM']Exactly what does it mean to "make the world a better place"?[/quote] It does not mean anything absolutly(thank you Mr. Sartre ). I don't claim that my attempts to reduce suffering in the world is some objective, transcendent good. I would love it if it were though. No one has answered my Euthyphro question btw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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