Why Must Morals Come From God And Not Anywhere Else?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote]The problem I have is that you and your religion contend that morals must come from God. Why? Why must they come from God? You say that without God, there are no morals. But why must God be the absolute moral authority?

These are serious questions I have because no one has ever addressed them. Why can't the moral standard be something that everyone has chosen to believe? You choose to believe your religion over others so in essence, you are choosing one set of morals over the other. Why then does God have to be the ultimate authority?[/quote]
To not hijack the thread about persecution in the US, a new topic about morals and God.

[pan!c139]

Because God is the ultimate authority, it makes sense that everything we know comes from Him - where else would it come from? If it came from anywhere else, it would suggest a being apart from God who also knows everything. In our days, everyone is so brainwashed that right and wrong are no longer clear. They used to be - the fact that killing is evil used to be written in every man's heart, but it seems those lines of right and wrong are blurred because of our society.

[cmotherofpirl]

I know some wonderfully moral people who are not religious.

[Hassan]

[quote name='pan!c139' post='1642034' date='Aug 29 2008, 09:41 PM']Because God is the ultimate authority, it makes sense that everything we know comes from Him - where else would it come from? If it came from anywhere else, it would suggest a being apart from God who also knows everything. In our days, everyone is so brainwashed that right and wrong are no longer clear. They used to be - the fact that killing is evil used to be written in every man's heart, but it seems those lines of right and wrong are blurred because of our society.[/quote]


it is not writes in the heart of the God of the Bible, he commands quite a bit of killing


Is an act moral because God wills it, or does God will it because it is moral?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1642066' date='Aug 29 2008, 08:55 PM']it is not writes in the heart of the God of the Bible, he commands quite a bit of killing


Is an act moral because God wills it, or does God will it because it is moral?[/quote]
Exactly. If an act is moral because God wills it, then morality is still arbitrary because God can decide to will anything. But then you may say, well God only wills what is good. Well, what is good and who defines it? God can't. That's a circular argument - God wills what is good and good is determined by what God wills. Well either way, morality is reduced to whatever God's whim is and what he decides to be good. And if that's the case, your God and his morality is no more logical than me saying that morality is based on the overriding needs of all humanity. Because after all, all humans have the same basic needs and all respond the same to basic events, it's not obsurd that humanity would have morality based on these needs and reactions.

[Hassan]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1642069' date='Aug 29 2008, 09:59 PM']Exactly. If an act is moral because God wills it, then morality is still arbitrary because God can decide to will anything. But then you may say, well God only wills what is good. Well, what is good and who defines it? God can't. That's a circular argument - God wills what is good and good is determined by what God wills. Well either way, morality is reduced to whatever God's whim is and what he decides to be good. And if that's the case, your God and his morality is no more logical than me saying that morality is based on the overriding needs of all humanity. Because after all, all humans have the same basic needs and all respond the same to basic events, it's not obsurd that humanity would have morality based on these needs and reactions.[/quote]


exactly

[Vincent Vega]

Ok, FD, My man. There's no need to reinvent the wheel. I think this article states in more efficient and more logical language than what I'd be able to provide.
The two articles that I would focus on as my answer to you would be the ones entitled "What is Ethics without God?" and "From a Crack in the Dam, To a Flood in the Valley".
[url="http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/god-ethi.html"]http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/god-ethi.html[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1642066' date='Aug 29 2008, 11:55 PM']it is not writes in the heart of the God of the Bible, he commands quite a bit of killing


Is an act moral because God wills it, or does God will it because it is moral?[/quote]
God cannot will evil.
Humans can choose it because of free will.
"When a free creature chooses what is evil, he does not choose it formally as such, but only sub specie boni, i.e., what his will really embraces is some aspect of goodness which he truly or falsely believes to be discoverable in the evil act. Moral evil ultimately consists in choosing some such fancied good which is known more or less clearly to be opposed to the Supreme Good, and it is obvious that only a finite being can be capable of such a choice. God necessarily loves Himself, who is the Supreme Good, and cannot wish anything that would be opposed to Himself."

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1642079' date='Aug 29 2008, 11:04 PM']God cannot will evil.[/quote]

But doesn't he? God commands Abraham to murder his own son.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1642069' date='Aug 29 2008, 10:59 PM']Exactly. If an act is moral because God wills it, then morality is still arbitrary because God can decide to will anything. But then you may say, well God only wills what is good. Well, what is good and who defines it? God can't. That's a circular argument - God wills what is good and good is determined by what God wills. Well either way, morality is reduced to whatever God's whim is and what he decides to be good. And if that's the case, your God and his morality is no more logical than me saying that morality is based on the overriding needs of all humanity. Because after all, all humans have the same basic needs and all respond the same to basic events, it's not obsurd that humanity would have morality based on these needs and reactions.[/quote]

Let me ask you this one Fidei,

There are proponents who think genetic manipulation of children in the womb to help them in life is a good idea. Others believe, that this is pro culture of death, because basically what we are saying is, God didn't form that child right in the womb, and therefore he's completely wrong, and we need to correct this so the child can be a productive member of society.

In your ideology, helping the child is good, right. Sounds like a great idea, help aleivate that child's sufferings.

But, if you look at it like, God created this person, what right do I have to change him/her, then we would be morally opposed.

Which one of us is right, and which is wrong.

Therefore, I would say that ethics stem from God, and saying, God made things to be like this, therefore, if he made it like this, why should I do anything but. . . cooperate with him on this!

Case in point.

People who decided to use Modified Bovine Growth Hormone think the milk their cows make are just like any other milk made by any other cow. But studies show those hormones have been linked to cancer in humans that drink that milk.

[url="http://www.preventcancer.com/consumers/general/milk.htm"]http://www.preventcancer.com/consumers/general/milk.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.preventcancer.com/consumers/general/bioengineered.htm"]http://www.preventcancer.com/consumers/gen...oengineered.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/bgh.htm"]http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/bgh.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.healthtruthrevealed.com/full-page.php?page=article&&id=08562418607"]http://www.healthtruthrevealed.com/full-pa...;id=08562418607[/url]
[url="http://foodconsumer.org/7777/8888/C_onsumer_A_ffair_26/063001502008_A_Red_White_and_Bovine_Growth_Hormone-Free_Independence_Day.shtml"]http://foodconsumer.org/7777/8888/C_onsume...dence_Day.shtml[/url]

So, with this as an example, if God created cows to make a certain amount of milk every single day, what right do we, and what dangers are there, if we change what he created!

So, with this example, God should be included in the ethics and morals argument, because if you don't believe in God, than what stops you from changing things that shouldn't be changed, because you think it will solve a problem!

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1642076' date='Aug 29 2008, 09:03 PM']Ok, FD, My man. There's no need to reinvent the wheel. I think this article states in more efficient and more logical language than what I'd be able to provide.
The two articles that I would focus on as my answer to you would be the ones entitled "What is Ethics without God?" and "From a Crack in the Dam, To a Flood in the Valley".
[url="http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/god-ethi.html"]http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/god-ethi.html[/url][/quote]
Where I take issue is the fear tactic that is used in this article in the second section you referred me to. Why must the world descend into chaos and "evil" because of a disbelief in God? No one has been able to give a realistic example of this. Not everyone in the world believes in God and the Christian morals yet the world is not chaotic like theists would have you believe.

I don't believe in God and yet I don't go do "evil" things. I have needs like every other human being, and like the rest of you, though you may deny it, I live based on those needs.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1642083' date='Aug 29 2008, 09:09 PM']But doesn't he? God commands Abraham to murder his own son.[/quote]
Apparently evil is subjective to God. If it serves his purpose, then it's "good."

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1642090' date='Aug 29 2008, 10:20 PM']Where I take issue is the fear tactic that is used in this article in the second section you referred me to. Why must the world descend into chaos and "evil" because of a disbelief in God? No one has been able to give a realistic example of this. Not everyone in the world believes in God and the Christian morals yet the world is not chaotic like theists would have you believe.[/quote]
That's the problem I forsaw by using another's words. I certainly don't agree with every word. I wouldn't call anyone evil or immoral, simply by way of being atheist.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1642095' date='Aug 29 2008, 09:23 PM']That's the problem I forsaw by using another's words. I certainly don't agree with every word. I wouldn't call anyone evil or immoral, simply by way of being atheist.[/quote]
Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily think you believe that. But it's a general theme in debate about this that the world suddenly becomes meaningless and chaotic without God, and I disagree. Mainly because no one has yet to show me why it's okay to say that someone loving another is an okay form of subjective meaning, but not murdering someone has to come from an absolute authority on morality. I would simply contend that the feelings about murder being undesirable are just more widespread and applicable than someone loving a particular person. It affects more people and thus, people have a more similar opinion. But that doesnt even follow completely because people are still at odds with the death penalty, some for and some against. Killing someone is killing someone, so why do people disagree?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1642083' date='Aug 30 2008, 12:09 AM']But doesn't he? God commands Abraham to murder his own son.[/quote]
God tests Abraham.