thessalonian Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 I was listening to a Lutheran Pastor and a Catholic priest discuss assurance of salvation. The Lutheran guy said that he knew with absolute certainty that if he died at this moment he would go to heaven. He did hold the possibility that you could fall from grace. With that type of theology this is the question I sent to him. Anyone who would like to comment feel free. The other week listening to your talk with the priest you said you were infallibly certain that you would go to heaven if you died at this moment. Yet you are hesitant to believe Once Saved Always Saved, i.e. you hold out that we might be able to fall from grace. So the question is if one does fall from grace would one infallibly know? If one does not infallibly know that they fell from grace they cannot infallibly know that they are in grace either, i.e. by saying that you cannot infallibly know that you have fallen from grace then you are saying that you may be in a state where you know you are Saved but aren't really. Do you follow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 he might say,,, OSAS only means if you lose your faith, you lose salvation. he could argue that he maintains his faith. one could argue against him, that he doesn't know whether his faith is saving, or if he even has real faith or not. but,,, you couldn't deny that there's a possible distinction there, among other things. eg, he could argue,,,, serious sins means you lose your salvation. this wouldnt' be as protestant, so it's not as likely. theology is so flexible, it could go anywhere, the cynical side of me says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted August 28, 2008 Author Share Posted August 28, 2008 Oh I am sure he will find a way out of it. They always do. This question points to a general issue with the once saved always saved position that they cannot be 100 % sure of their scriptural interpretations so they cannot be 100% sure by simple logic of their salvation. One who is only 99% sure that his scriptural interpretation is correct that leads to OSAS cannot say he is 100% sure of his salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 you hit the nail on the head. and that should be your main line of attack, on the issue of infallible interpretations etc. you also might raise the point about how the CC is an outside entity, and if there's to be any closer to objective interpretations, than the bible alone, they'd have to com from outside entities, given the various beliefs out there. the reason you might point that out,,, is that it can still be argued that if there's any potential for mistake in the CC being true, and since it's a person staking the claim, then you couldn't put infallible faith in their ideas, either. (there's some real knowledgable orthodox people i know who would agree with that,,, i should try to get them to come to phatmass) but at any rate, some things are pretty clear in the bible is outside entity albeit a muchly disputed outside entity, and it doesn't detract from knowing basic truths, but for a lot of it, you just can't know for sure. also that teh CC would be a truer way if there was a awy to get a truer way,,,, but it doesn't rule out that it's not the way, remembering that i am a noncatholic, and that object interpretation could arise from personal interpretation. it's just that one can't be sure of it, or specific beliefs in particular as much,,,, even i can concede as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 I guess I am just amazed that anyone could feel so confidant that they know the mind of God. That is what they are saying when they are positive they are saved at any moment. I am not sure that shows one really knows what humility is or how important it is. I wish I could feel confidant about it for even one minute of any given day. Maybe right after confession and Mass, until I get out to my car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Deb' post='1640869' date='Aug 28 2008, 08:04 PM']I guess I am just amazed that anyone could feel so confidant that they know the mind of God. That is what they are saying when they are positive they are saved at any moment. I am not sure that shows one really knows what humility is or how important it is. I wish I could feel confidant about it for even one minute of any given day. Maybe right after confession and Mass, until I get out to my car. [/quote] I see what you are saying but at the same time I dont know how you wouldnt be sure that God is going to save you ? God loves us and we have a friendship with him and in my opinon unless we really try to give him a reason he is never going to forsake us. I agree it is good to be humble and walk in humility and going around being boastfull about being saved probally isnt the right thing to do. But I dont see how there is anything wrong with knowing that God is going to be there for you and always have your back. That is why he died and suffered the way he did, so we could be saved and have confidence that he loves us and is going to be with us forever. Again I see what you're sayen but at the same time I dont think you're giveing God,his love, and his grace enough credit if you really think he would forsake you and send you to hell when you have faith in Christ and you are trying to do what he has asked of you......Just my thoughts... Edited August 29, 2008 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted August 29, 2008 Author Share Posted August 29, 2008 Delivery Boy, We are in fact to have confidence that God is doing everything he can within the confines of allowing our will to save us. He says that he desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. We can have confidence that God is leading us along the path of salvation if we are in his grace and even if we are not and are somehow decieving ourselves we can have confidence that he is leading us back. You make the same mistake that most humans make. Its called false dichtomy syndrome. Because someone says one thing they are not saying something else that is not contradictory. Not having 100% assurance does not mean we cannot have confidence. The weather man said it was sunny today and so, since he is usually right I have confidence in that. God says he will lead me on the path of life and so I have confidence in that. But I also realize that there is a small part that depends on me being honest with myself in my free will, which allows me to be dishonest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='thessalonian' post='1641294' date='Aug 29 2008, 08:20 AM']Delivery Boy, We are in fact to have confidence that God is doing everything he can within the confines of allowing our will to save us. He says that he desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. We can have confidence that God is leading us along the path of salvation if we are in his grace and even if we are not and are somehow decieving ourselves we can have confidence that he is leading us back. You make the same mistake that most humans make. Its called false dichtomy syndrome. Because someone says one thing they are not saying something else that is not contradictory. Not having 100% assurance does not mean we cannot have confidence. The weather man said it was sunny today and so, since he is usually right I have confidence in that. God says he will lead me on the path of life and so I have confidence in that. But I also realize that there is a small part that depends on me being honest with myself in my free will, which allows me to be dishonest.[/quote] Thessalonian, you make perfect sence and I agree with you. Im not a good person and I know I do alot of things that offend God and seperate myself from him quite often. I guess what I wrote above is not really meant for me but for someone who is a really good person and always in Gods grace. I think these people know that they are saved and love Jesus so much that there is no doubt in their mind that they will be in Heaven with God. I think these people deserve to know that to. I dont know the verse but I know john says that whoever believes and confesses that Christ is Lord will be saved. Again, im talking about people who are really good christians and really love God. That verse alone assures those peple they will be saved and I think its a gift from God that they know they will be saved. I dont think there is anything wrong with that or that they should be looked down upon for that. Again someone like me who falls into mortal sin often and is need of confession often I guess I shouldnt be so confident of my salvation. But I know that I love God and I know that he loves me and if I would ever end up in hell its because I dropped the ball. God has done everything he can to show me himself and lead me on the path to salvation. So hopefully by his grace I will end up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hérisson Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 Ok, the Council of Trient stated that we cannot be sure to be saved. As for me personnallly, I'm not sure indeed... But I have the impression that some saints were quite sure... if not absolutely certain. Saint Paul didn't seem to have any doubts. And how could saint Therese of Lisieux say "I will spent my heaven doing good on earth" if she hadn't be sure to go to heaven ? Maybe I just misunderstand something ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 [quote name='hérisson' post='1642533' date='Aug 30 2008, 03:32 PM']Ok, the Council of Trient stated that we cannot be sure to be saved. As for me personnallly, I'm not sure indeed... But I have the impression that some saints were quite sure... if not absolutely certain. Saint Paul didn't seem to have any doubts. And how could saint Therese of Lisieux say "I will spent my heaven doing good on earth" if she hadn't be sure to go to heaven ? Maybe I just misunderstand something ...[/quote] Divine, private revelation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1641220' date='Aug 29 2008, 02:47 AM']I see what you are saying but at the same time I dont know how you wouldnt be sure that God is going to save you ? God loves us and we have a friendship with him and in my opinon unless we really try to give him a reason he is never going to forsake us. I agree it is good to be humble and walk in humility and going around being boastfull about being saved probally isnt the right thing to do. But I dont see how there is anything wrong with knowing that God is going to be there for you and always have your back. That is why he died and suffered the way he did, so we could be saved and have confidence that he loves us and is going to be with us forever. Again I see what you're sayen but at the same time I dont think you're giveing God,his love, and his grace enough credit if you really think he would forsake you and send you to hell when you have faith in Christ and you are trying to do what he has asked of you......Just my thoughts...[/quote] I know that God is always with me and will never abandon me. God loves me far more than I deserve. There isn't anything wrong in assuming that God will save a person. To state without a doubt that you ARE saved is definitely prideful and not the thing to go around doing. No probably about it, especially if you are someone who hasn't even the benefit of the sacrament of confession, much less any of the other sacraments Jesus Christ instituted for us as a way to be assured of eternal life. I have complete confidence in God's grace. I have no confidence in not getting in his way with my will. Trying to do what God wills is not the same as doing what God wills. Just trying to know, with confidence exactly what God is willing me to do is very difficult for me. His ways are not my ways. I love the Lord. He has shown me what it would be like to not have him dwell within me in any way and I have confidence that he showed that to me for a reason. I believe I know exactly what hell is and my fear of God is as strong as my Love. Every single day is a day that I will pray that I will act in accordance of God's will so that I will be saved. The total absence of God is a horror that few could even imagine. I have complete confidence that God wants me to be saved and to dwell with him for all eternity. He will pour his Grace upon me but, it is I that have to accept that grace and live accordingly. Unfortunately, I am human and Satan knows all my weaknesses. I pray I am saved, I will not take it for granted however. Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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