HisChildForever Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 [quote]I can agree that your arguments point to some moral absolute or a universal 'first cause.' However, it is a far jump from that to a God that is anything resembling the personal God you believe in, and as you just admitted, it's questionable at best whether or not you can prove such a God exists. Thus, I cannot bring myself to believe that a God like that does exist, and I remain in the same state of belief as I have been.[/quote] Out of sheer curiosity I ask, why is it so difficult to connect the "first cause god" with the Christian God? You used the word "personal" to describe the Christian God, so does that imply that the "first cause" god is impersonal? With that tossed out there, what is your reasoning to explain why this impersonal god created the universe and has since stepped back from it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 [quote name='Lord Philip' post='1638891' date='Aug 26 2008, 03:57 PM']But you cannot remain in the same state of belief. You were in the atheistic camp, and now admit that arguments for the existence of a god (of some sort...be it a "force" or some other sort of impersonal god...) are consistent and make sense. Now you must move into the theistic camp where you know God exists, but you do not know who (or what) he/she/it is. It is not that it is questionable whether or not the Christian God exists, but rather whether the god whose existence we have just proven is the Christian God or not. You really should read those books I reccommended: they explore this issue without saying ridiculous things like, "the Bible says it so you should believe it." They, using reason, try to provide basis for Christian beliefs and they do a fantastic job. You owe it to yourself to read those books. If you like, PM me and I will buy them for you. You said: "I think it's impossible to say that things in the world are not somewhat psychological in nature." You are confusing epistemology with ontology. The way we come to know things (epistemology) of course has an element that is psychological. But there must be an object which is known (ontology), and this is not subject to the changing tides of subjective opinion. Thus your statement that the interpretation of morals is diverse has no bearing on whether or not morals exist absolutely or not. Morals, like the multiplication table, exist ontologically. Just beacuse someone does not know them or makes a mistake does not mean that the multiplication table does not exist, and it certainly does not make the multiplication table a figment of one's imagination. Blessings, Philip[/quote] I like you, you're smart! I actually have many of the books you mentioned, and have read them. I should also mention, I do not subscribe to the atheistic camp's ideas. Agnosticism describes my belief better. I believe that a concept of God is reasonable, but I have rejected the Christian religion, for my personal belief anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1638904' date='Aug 26 2008, 04:20 PM']Out of sheer curiosity I ask, why is it so difficult to connect the "first cause god" with the Christian God? You used the word "personal" to describe the Christian God, so does that imply that the "first cause" god is impersonal? With that tossed out there, what is your reasoning to explain why this impersonal god created the universe and has since stepped back from it?[/quote] I believe it's plausible for a god of some kind to exist who caused the entire universe to come into existence, etc. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the whole Christian belief system is true - that Jesus came to forgive sins, he did this or that, etc - in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1638956' date='Aug 26 2008, 07:18 PM']I believe it's plausible for a god of some kind to exist who caused the entire universe to come into existence, etc. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the whole Christian belief system is true - that Jesus came to forgive sins, he did this or that, etc - in my mind.[/quote] Is there a reason behind your non-belief in Jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 [quote name='havok579257' post='1639000' date='Aug 26 2008, 06:31 PM']Is there a reason behind your non-belief in Jesus?[/quote] I used to be a hardcore Catholic, but have since simply fallen away. I have no "life changing" event that shattered my faith or something that made me "mistrust" God. I just... don't believe anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1638956' date='Aug 26 2008, 07:18 PM']I believe it's plausible for a god of some kind to exist who caused the entire universe to come into existence, etc. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the whole Christian belief system is true - that Jesus came to forgive sins, he did this or that, etc - in my mind.[/quote] That's not necessarily reasoning (which I was asking for). That's opinion. I want to know what "evidence" (for lack of a better word) you have to support your belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1639009' date='Aug 26 2008, 06:46 PM']That's not necessarily reasoning (which I was asking for). That's opinion. I want to know what "evidence" (for lack of a better word) you have to support your belief.[/quote] Actually, the burden of the proof is on you to prove that this "god" that exists out there is the Christian God, not for me to prove that he isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakeYouThink Posted August 27, 2008 Author Share Posted August 27, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1639020' date='Aug 26 2008, 08:02 PM']Actually, the burden of the proof is on you to prove that this "god" that exists out there is the Christian God, not for me to prove that he isn't.[/quote] Sorry, I can't give you any proof that Jesus is Lord and God. There will be no proof, and I fear for you, that you will know he is God when you bow before him to the Glory of God the Father, before the white throne judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1638952' date='Aug 26 2008, 07:15 PM']I like you, you're smart! I actually have many of the books you mentioned, and have read them. I should also mention, I do not subscribe to the atheistic camp's ideas. Agnosticism describes my belief better. I believe that a concept of God is reasonable, but I have rejected the Christian religion, for my personal belief anyway.[/quote] [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1638956' date='Aug 26 2008, 07:18 PM']I believe it's plausible for a god of some kind to exist who caused the entire universe to come into existence, etc. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the whole Christian belief system is true - that Jesus came to forgive sins, he did this or that, etc - in my mind.[/quote] Since you say you believe that the existence of a Creator God is plausible, but don't believe in the "Christian God," whose god do you believe in? (Serious question, not being a smart-alek here.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 [quote name='Socrates' post='1639031' date='Aug 26 2008, 07:09 PM']Since you say you believe that the existence of a Creator God is plausible, but don't believe in the "Christian God," whose god do you believe in? (Serious question, not being a smart-alek here.)[/quote] I'm not sure. I have a very weak position, I realize. But I'm not leaning strongly towards any belief, I'm mainly apathetic. But since I've believed in the Christian God and then fell away, I'm not really impressed by any of the arguments that I used to stand by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1639006' date='Aug 26 2008, 08:40 PM']I used to be a hardcore Catholic, but have since simply fallen away. I have no "life changing" event that shattered my faith or something that made me "mistrust" God. I just... don't believe anymore.[/quote] What caused you to suddenly stop believing in Jesus the Christ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 [quote name='havok579257' post='1639228' date='Aug 26 2008, 09:26 PM']What caused you to suddenly stop believing in Jesus the Christ?[/quote] Despite my prayers for renewed faith, they failed and I fell away. I just stopped believing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1639020' date='Aug 26 2008, 09:02 PM']Actually, the burden of the proof is on you to prove that this "god" that exists out there is the Christian God, not for me to prove that he isn't.[/quote] Fine. Then disprove the Christian God. [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1639257' date='Aug 26 2008, 11:59 PM']Despite my prayers for renewed faith, they failed and I fell away. I just stopped believing.[/quote] You don't think that maybe your dry spell was a period God intended you to use to strengthen your faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1639271' date='Aug 26 2008, 10:14 PM']Fine. Then disprove the Christian God. You don't think that maybe your dry spell was a period God intended you to use to strengthen your faith?[/quote] My point was that YOU have the burden to prove the Christian God, not that have to try to disprove him. You're trying to convince me that this uncaused cause is the Christian God. And if God intended to strengthen my faith, he failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1639274' date='Aug 27 2008, 12:17 AM']My point was that YOU have the burden to prove the Christian God, not that have to try to disprove him. You're trying to convince me that this uncaused cause is the Christian God.[/quote] In order to properly convince you - or, rather, in order to state my case - I need to understand exactly what it is you believe and what it is you do not believe, as well as why. You've already been clear in what you now believe (a disinterested god). I also know what you do not believe - Jesus, etc. The missing piece here is the [i]why[/i]. I can't debate this with you if you don't explain to me why you don't believe in the Christian God. [quote]And if God intended to strengthen my faith, he failed.[/quote] God doesn't fail. Which means you must have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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