Justified

[Brother Adam]

Justification is something that deeply seperates Protestants and Catholics. I still can't give up Sola Fide and still am deeply rooted in it. So I'm trying to understand how Catholics really understand justification.

Romans 10:1-17 (ESV)
Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. [2] I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. [3] For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. [4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
[5] For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. [6] But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) [7] or " 'Who will descend into the abyss?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). [8] But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); [9] because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. [11] For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." [12] [b]For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. [13] For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." [/b]
[14] But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? [15] And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" [16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" [17] [b]So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. [/b]


It seems that verses like these and others in the Bible support the legal view of salvation reformed doctrine holds to.

If you believe, you will be saved. This belief means trusting fully in Christ and turning away from your sin and giving yourself to God.

While I understand now that baptism is the entrance into the New Covenant, Romans 10:17 basically says "faith comes through hearing" and we know it's faith that saves.

Could use some help here.

[Archangel]

You can read about "Grace and Justification" in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: [url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm[/url]

Also, there is a nice explanation in Catholic Answer's "Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth" under the sections "What You Must Do to Be Saved" and "Are You Guaranteed Heaven?": [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/pillar.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/pillar.asp[/url]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 4 2004, 04:15 PM'] [b]For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. [13] For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." [/b]

[b]So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. [/b]


It seems that verses like these and others in the Bible support the legal view of salvation reformed doctrine holds to.

If you believe, you will be saved. This belief means trusting fully in Christ and turning away from your sin and giving yourself to God.

While I understand now that baptism is the entrance into the New Covenant, Romans 10:17 basically says "faith comes through hearing" and we know it's faith that saves.

Could use some help here. [/quote]
Certainly there are many verses that if understood withing the protestant framework become proof texts for the protestant understanding of justification. But I think you have to read a lot of theological baggage into the texts to come up with protestant soteriology. And you do not resolve the whole of what Paul, or the Scriptures have to say about salvation and justification.

The main point Paul is making in the first quote is that salvation is for all people without distinction. He was constantly battling against the tendency to view circumcision and being a Jew as superior or as necessary for salvation. Here he is very clearly emphasizing that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. Jew and Greek without distinction. Entry into the new covenant is not about works of the law or being a Jew, it's about faith in Jesus (what "faith" actually means is another discussion). I don't think he is trying to imply a legal view of salvation by any means. He is emphasising the universality of salvation in Christ. And as we know from a complete study of Pauline soteriology, faith is the foundation and entry point into divine life, the life of the Spirit, adoption in Christ, a new creation, and hence salvation. I certainly don't think he is trying to imply that baptism is useless, I don't think he's talking about baptism at all, it doesn't fit with the context and one should be weary about reading into the text and drawing out big brush stroke conclusions. Obviously if one believes the Gospel he will be baptized as soon as possible, this is part of the preaching of the Gospel message afterall. The Church has taught from ancient times that a person who believes in Christ but dies before they have been able to receive baptism will receive baptism by desire and will be saved. But anyway I don't think Paul really had in mind such things, he was making a point about the universal dimensions of the new covenant. I think basing soteriological doctrines on such "proof texts" is kind of a misuse of Scripture. It is better to get a holistic view of what the N.T. says. This is, I believe, what the Catholic teaching achieves.

I hope this helps. Peace Brother.

[phatcatholic]

bro adam,

here is my short take on salvation by faith.

faith DOES save, and for two reasons:

[b]1. [/b]b/c it compels us to be baptized and to baptize our infants, upon which we receive "initial" salvation.
[b]2. [/b]b/c faith is obedient. it is naturally and inseperably united to good works. if we are steadfast in this faith we will be saved. we will end up in heaven b/c we were commited to doing the will of God and not sinning.

that said, i think there are two errors in the protestant conception of salvation by faith (note: generally speaking)

[b]1. [/b]it is merely the professional or belief aspect of faith that saves, instead of an obedient faith.
[b]2. [/b]salvation occurs immediately upon this profession of faith. they just assume that the salvation is immediate and occurs instantly, instead of salvation being the end result of a lifetime of "running the race" and "working out salvation w/ fear and trembling."

of course, this is a short list, w/o considering our differences on eternal security, imputed righteousness, forgiveness of sins, the effects of sin, and other doctrines that effect salvation. for more on all that, please go [b][url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=7728"]here[/url][/b].

the proofs for all of these claims can be provided upon request. i hope this helps...............and w/o offending you.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Stephen III]

Bro Adam,

It's good to see a familiar face! I was one of the ones recently banned from the Baptist Board for holding complementary views of my Catholic and Christian faith. I've been looking for other forums. And while this one is truly a breath of fresh air, something in me likes playing the underdog and call me a masochist but also the challenge of defending the faith. Along those lines do you know of any additional forums where Catholics are routinely and unmercifullly bashed with impunity,.... you know like the BB

Anywho... in regards to your Justification post, I wanted to include a copy of something I posted on the BB, (and may have led to my being banned ) it was an excerpt from a book by David Currie (I think you've read it or referenced it , if memory serves me) I thought I'd share it here as well. Besides, I'm a hunt and peck type of writer, so with all the work I put into it originally, I'd like to get as much mileage out of it as possible! ....anyway let me know your thoughts.

....."To perhaps invigorate the discussion I would like to take some of the angst out of it and discuss (in hopefully a charitable way) some of the points of concern where we differ.

The first is in the definitions. If we can't agree on what it is we are discussing, how would we expect to understand each other in the first place?
I've been reading David Currie's book "Born Fundamentalist.. Born Again Catholic" and he (I think) did an adequate job of describing some of the differences between certain phrases, words and concepts in regard to salvation. I would like to share what he has written about the topic with an emphasis on the Catholic perspective of these words etc. and afterward lend perhaps my own, albeit limited and qualified opinions.
His own background included a fundamentalist upbringing: (his father was a preacher and both parents were teachers at Moody Bible Institute, he himself received a degree from Trinity International University and studied in the Masters of Divinity program at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School) He wrote this book as an explanation to his friends and family as to why he became Catholic.
Perhaps from there we can see where you (the Protestant listener) might agree or disagree.

(I apologize in advance at the length of this post. I will try to edit to the salient points.

Taken from "Born Fundamentalist ..Born Again Catholic by David B. Currie p.111-125 Ignatius Press
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"What I found initially is that there is a tremendous amount of confusion on both sides of the discussion about what Evangelicals and Catholics believe. Many Evangelicals will tell you that they believe that Christians are saved by faith. A few Catholics will tell you that they believe Christians are saved by works. Both are not only dead wrong, but both give inaccurate portrayals of their own theologies! Informed Evangelicals do not teach that we are saved by faith, and Catholics do not teach that we are saved by works.
Evangelical and Catholic theologies both accept as the starting tenet of soteriology (insert from Steve: the study of Christian salvation) that we are saved by grace ...This is not a point of disagreement between Catholics and Evangelicals. It is one of our glorious agreements!....None of us would have a chance at salvation but for the grace of God... We are saved by grace. Anyone who disagrees with this analysis is not looking at the facts.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it this way: " Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification" (CCC 2010).

As with so many terms, grace as defined by Catholics is slightly different from grace as defined by Evangelicals...Evangelicals define grace by referring primarily to its origin in God: grace is "the free generosity of God through the self-giving of Christ ( The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible ) Catholics agree with this part of the Evangelical definition but go on to define how the grace of God affects us when we are touched by it: "any divine assistance given to persons in order to advance them toward their supernatural destiny of fellowship with God.... Grace transforms a person's nature" (Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Encyclopedia ). Catholics will go even farther, distinquishing between sanctifying grace (supernatural life) and actual grace (supernatural aid).

But if we agree that we are saved "by" grace, "through" what are we saved? How does that grace of God become an active part of my life? That is the point at which Evangelicals and Catholics part company. We both call that part of the salvation process by its biblical term, justification. Justification prepares a Christian to meet a holy God in eternity. To phrase the question another way: "By" what are we justified?

Evangelicals define justification as an act of God whereby he declares the Christian righteous. It happens at one moment in time and is made possible by the Christian's faith alone ( sola fide , justification by faith alone).

Catholics teach that justification starts at a moment in time but continues throughout a Christian's life. Justification is made operative in one's life by both faith and works. Some Evangelicals seem to imply that Catholics do not see a place for faith in justification. This is an error. The problem that Catholics have with Protestant soteriology is not the claim that we are justified by faith but the claim that we are justified by faith alone . The "alone" sticks in the Catholic craw...
Catholics agree with Evangelicals that justification is by faith but not that it is by faith alone-works continue the justification after faith has begun it. Catholics agree with Evangelicals that justification has a starting point at a moment in time but not that justification ends at that moment in time: it continues throughout life. some Evangelicals have likened Catholic justification to Evangelical justification and sanctification rolled up into one. A Catholic would respond that justification is not complete without complete sanctification: "Justification entails the sanctification of (man's) whole being" (CCC 1995).

... First, does Scripture indicate anywhere that works are essential for justification? If..so..it would strongly suggest that justification is more than just a momentary event. After all, works do take time...

.Scripture does clearly and emphatically teach that works are invlolved in the "by" of justification. The most obvious passage is in James:

What good is it, my brothers. if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?...Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead... You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?...Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his works were working together...You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (James 2:14-26)

...the Greek word used by James is unmistakable. It is the identical technical term used by all the New Testament for justification. James said that a man is "justified by what he does".

..It is interesting to me how many Evangelicals handle this passage..They view it as a problem passage needing extensive explanation. This may be a reflection of an either-or mentality: that we must be justified by faith alone or by works alone. But neither James nor the Catholic Church claims justification comes by works alone. Justification is accomplished by faith coupled with works.

Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Encyclopedia puts it this way:

Justification in the Catholic Tradition comes about by means of faith in Christ, and in a life of good works lived in response to God's invitation to believe...Catholic Faith holds that faith without good works is not sufficient to merit justification, for good works show one's willingness to cooperate with the initiatives of grace... What is necessary for salvation is a faith that represents itself both externally through acts and internally through faith .

If that sounds familiar, reread James!

Most important, this is the gospel of Jesus. His ideal was that of a life of good works flowing outward from a vibrant inner faith. The parables of the wise and foolish builders (Mt 7:24-27), the two sons (Mt 21:28-32), the good Samaritan (Lk 10:25-37), the talents (Mt 25:14-30) the sheep and the goats (Mt 25:31-46), and others all teach a unity of faith and works for salvation. Father Mithell Pacwa, S.J., has made the point that the entire Sermon on the Mount is a discourse on Jesus's view of justification (justification and righteousness have the same root in Greek): "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my father who is in heaven" (Mt 7:21) How much more explicit could Jesus have been?"
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continued:

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" It is quite clear in Jesus' teaching that justification, and thus salvation, is accomplished in a unity of these two: faith and works. The whole process is made possible solely by grace. This is just what Catholic theology asserts......

Although it is impossible to look at all the pertinent verses, two verses that Evangelicals advance as refuting Catholicism should be examined:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works , so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works" (Eph 2:8-10).

When I resigned from the Evangelical church where we had been members, I received a stinging letter quoting these verses. Evangelicals try to use this passage to prove that we are not saved by works. All a Catholic can do is agree!

One of our glorious agreements is that we are not saved by works, we are saved by grace. That is what Paul is stating here. He is not pitting works against faith. The passage never tries to focus on the inner workings of justification. He is pitting works against grace (notice the use of the preposition "by", twice)! This verse says that we are saved by grace; that even the faith we have is a gracious gift; and that the works we do are nothing to boast of because they too are a gracious gift- "God's workmanship" in us. It is all grace through and through, from beginning to end. ..

Another verse commonly used against Catholics is Titus 3:5:

"He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy."

Paul here is noting the motivation behind God's decision to provide for our salvation. Both Catholics and Evangelicals agree that there is nothing in us that would cause God to save us. It was pure mercy that caused him to pour out his grace on us. This verse does not deal at all with the "how" of justification, either.

It also might be helpful for Evangelicals to know that Catholics do not believe that our works are innately valuable. The same could be said of our faith. If either is valuable to God, it is only because he graciously decided to make it so. They are meritorious only because by grace, God has connected them to the work of Christ and the Cross. "Grace ...ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men." (CCC 2011). .. This is what Augustine meant when he said, "All our good merits are wrought through grace, so that God, in crowning our merits, is crowning nothing but his gifts." Our responsibility is to cooperate with God: "do not put out the Spirit's fire" (1 Th 5:19)....

...When one starts with the gospel of Jesus, I believe it is inevitable that a Catholic view of salvation will be developed. We are saved by grace, justified by faith and works. Separate the faith from the works, and it dies. We can take no credit for our salvation, because both the faith and the works are a result of God's grace being operative in our lives....

The emphasis on justification by faith and works makes a tremendous practical difference. Ordinary Catholics tend to be less cerebral in their faith because the need for works involves more action. Evangelicals sometimes think of salvation as a kind of quiz. Get the right answer and you're in! They ask people, "When you die, and Jesus asks you at the gates of heaven, 'Why should I let you into my heaven?' What will you say?"

What a question! Jesus nowhere implies that judgement will be a quiz in which the correct answer gets you in and the wrong one forces you out.... Entrance to heaven is preceded by a judgement: a judgement of what we have done in our lives. The criterion in every judgement scene in the New Testament is works: "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my father" (Mt 7:21; see also Jn 5, Mt 23, Rev 22, and 1 Cor 3).

....
The emphasis on continual justification by "graceful works" also affects our view of conversion. Evangelicals make certain that they experience a conversion at some point in their lives. for the rest of their lives they will point back to that conversion as the day they were "born again", or "saved". Their eternal destiny is secured.

Catholics believe in an initial conversion but also that we must continually be converted...

This is not to say that there may not come major turning points in a Catholic Christian's commitment. Francis of Assisi had a major conversion at the beginning of his adulthood. He was, however, already a Christian. He continued to have daily conversions throughout the rest of his life. Thomas Aquinas wrote and lectured on Christian theology his whole life. He was a Christian of towering intellect, faith and spirituality. Yet, toward the end of his life he had a major conversion....

So what role do works play in our justification? They put faith into concrete, physical action. We are not like fallen angels. Because angels do not have physical bodies, when they fell they were instantly and thoroughly damnable. But we have bodies linked to our spirits. we can desire something at the spiritual level of our beings but fail to accomplish it at the the physical level. The role of works is to develope our characters (souls, wills) so that the physical side of us is eventually made to be in harmony with our spiritual desires. This can take a lifetime. In the process, we expand our character in order to become more Christlike. Our faith does not just cover up our rebellious wills so that we can slip into heaven. Our faith makes us want to work at reforming ourselves into Christ's image. When we are "perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect" (Mt 5:48), then we are ready for heaven....

Catholics speak of heaven as our hope. Evangelicals prefer to speak of knowing that one is saved. Although Scripture uses both terminologies, actually Catholics are using the more common biblical language.
Faith, hope and charity are the three virtues of 1 Corinthians 13:13. Our hope is in Christ.and his promise of heaven: "We wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is not hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we don not yet have, we wait patiently" (Rom 8:23-25). Catholic literature describes our hope as a "certain confidence".
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There is much more to this chapter but I will await some responses and see if any of the other topics touched with in the chapter are brought up.

God Bless
Stephen

Edited March 5, 2004 by Stephen III

[Laudate_Dominum]

Cool! It's good to have you here Stephen!

:elvis: :band:

[Brother Adam]

Hi Stephen, welcome to the phorum!

I do know of the Fighting Fundamentalist Forum, but you don't want to go there. You post that you are a Catholci and they will tear you a new one before you can get two words out.

Your probably best off here. It's a great place! I can be a Baptist and not have to worry about being attacked by Catholics! I'm sorry that you are all being dragged through the mud and beat to death on the BB now. Especially since you can't say anything about it! I could care less what they say about me. . .

I'll read all you wrote tomorrow and all everyone else wrote. I have read David's book and Scott hahns conversion story as well.

God Bless,
Bro. Adam

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 4 2004, 10:15 PM'] Your probably best off here. It's a great place! I can be a Baptist and not have to worry about being attacked by Catholics! [/quote]
That's not to say we never debate. But if anyone ever tried to ban Brother Adam for being Baptist, I think all hell would break loose on this board.

[ironmonk]

Faith, Works, and being saved....


St. Matt 16:24
19 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, 20 take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 21
26 What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life?
27 22 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.


Works are very important.



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St. Matt 25:31
14 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'
44 18 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'
45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
You must do good works.


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St. Luke 12:47

That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;
48 and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.


If you know the will of the Father, and do not do it, you will be punished.



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2 Corin 11:15
So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

We will be judged by our deeds, our works. Preachers who say that all you need is faith and it doesn't matter what sins you do to get to heaven, are lying to you. The want your money.



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St. Matt 10:22
You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end 10 will be saved.

No one will be saved until the end. We must endure to the end, meaning we must do good works and have faith.



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St. Matt 24:13
But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

We are not saved until the end.



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St. Matt 7:1
1 2 "Stop judging, that you may not be judged.
2 For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.
3 Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?

We will be judged on how we judge others.



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St. John 3:19
9 And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.
21 But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.

Works are important.



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James 2:14
6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

This makes if very clear that faith without works is worthless.



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Eph 2:2
in which you once lived following the age of this world, 4 following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the disobedient.
3 All of us once lived among them in the desires of our flesh, following the wishes of the flesh and the impulses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ 5 (by grace you have been saved),
6 raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.
10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

So many people just look at verses 7, 8, & 9.... and take it out of context. When you look at 2-6 AND 10, it puts it into it's proper context.

In verses 2-6, it condemns the bad works.

In verse 9, the focus is so that 'none may boast', as the Pharisees did in the times before Christ.

In verse 10, it tells us the we need to live in "good works".



God Bless,
ironmonk

[IcePrincessKRS]

Welcome Stephen! Even if you go find a new "fighting ground" you're more than welcome to stick around here, too. You'll find that we get our fair share of non-Catholics to debate with, too.

[phatcatholic]

bro adam..................i hope you will read stephen's exerpt from "born fundamentalis, born again catholic." it appears as tho it will be tremendously helpful for you in understanding our differences concerning "salvation by faith" and "justification"

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Stephen III]

Thank you, one and all for the kind words of welcome! I am quite sure I will indeed stick around. I guess personally speaking I've always relished the underdog role, I'd sorta feel like I'm beating up or ganging up on someone who wasn't Catholic and posted something here. It does make you wonder though what must be going through the heads of those of other faiths who do just that under the guise of protecting the true faith....ala BB. But onward and upward!

I certainly will learn a lot more about my faith from the looks of the quality of posts here, not to mention the charity in which they're presented!

God Bless
Steve

[Brother Adam]

Sooo....

Would this be correct?

How is a Catholic saved: By Grace
How is a Catholic Justified: Initially- faith "alone" (baptism)
Throughout life: Faith and works

If it is- what is Santification, and where does it fit?

[cmotherofpirl]

Sanctification is the growing that you are doing thru receiving the sacraments and doing good works.
Its process.

Sanctification is what a good Lent is: giving up things to train our bodies and hearts, paying more attention to loving people, praying more, purifying our hearts for God.

Have you read the [i]Imitation of Christ[/i]?
THat is a working on sanctification: becoming pure and holy to stand before God.
Santification starts at justification and lasts until death.

[Justified Saint]

Here are some good quotes on justification from the Catechism:

"Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ"

"Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ...Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life."

"The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace."

There is nothing that humans can do to merit justification, it is entirely the free gift of God. This doesn't mean enternal security though, we grow in justification/sanctification through good works and ultimately we are more discerning against temptation and sin so that we may live by faith. Those who live by faith are made righteous. It is mortal sin that chokes the infusion of grace.