What Bush Has Done For The Pro-life Cause In America

[atheling]

[quote name='StColette' post='1640759' date='Aug 28 2008, 03:41 PM']These two situations were not decisions of the Church, but individuals of the Church acting on their own accord. The Church did not condemn Galileo's theories but rather individuals of the Church condemned him for going around saying "the Church is wrong the Church is wrong". And as for Joan of Arc, she was burned at the stake by Cardinals who thought they were acting on behalf of the entire Church when in fact they were not.




Again the Church does not have an "official view" on the issue of Iraq. The late Holy Father made clear his personal opinion on the matter, that does not equate to the "Church's view"[/quote]

Thank you! I had said that it was OPINION, but some people refuse to accept that fact.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='StColette' post='1640759' date='Aug 28 2008, 04:41 PM']Again the Church does not have an "official view" on the issue of Iraq. The late Holy Father made clear his personal opinion on the matter, that does not equate to the "Church's view"[/quote]

Fair enough.

But the Church certainly has a view/teaching on unjust wars and there has never been proof that the invasion of Iraq even came close to being defined as a just war. Not to mention, it was never. a. war. in. the. first. place. People are so anesthesised by 7 years of politicians and mainstream media referring to it as "The Iraq War" that nearly everyone has forgotten that it was NEVER a war. It was an invasion. That is NOT the same as a war. It became a war when the insurgents and radicals and terrorists came out of their snakeholes like a swarm of locusts. This invasion was unprovoked. And unlike the situation in Darfur, the Iraqi citizens did not ask us to "liberate" them. If it was just about liberating a people from a brutal tyrant, why didn't we liberate the North Koreans? Or any number of the African nations that are living and dying under brutal rule? Why Iraq? Ohhhhhh, right...I almost forgot: WMD. What a joke. The official 9/11 report that is hundreds of pages long and the size of a dictionary has already stated in its findings that there were no WMD. But that won't stop the "war supporters" from carring on about pieces of pipe and yellow cake. Meanwhile, the people of Darfur continue to be butchered to pieces while Bush golfs at Crawford.

[KnightofChrist]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=62687"]Arguably, a Just Warby Fr. John G. Yockey[/url]

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='atheling' post='1640763' date='Aug 28 2008, 04:50 PM']Thank you! I had said that it was OPINION, but some people refuse to accept that fact.[/quote]

And you refuse to accept the fact that were this any OTHER opinion expressed by the Holy Father, conservative Catholics would be on it like white on rice..."The Holy Father said so, and he's the Vicar of Christ on earth and this may not be an article of the Faith but he's holy and we should take his opinions seriously." Yes, that is what we would do. Because we trust him and we respect him as a great thinker and a holy man. But when it comes to his opinion on Iraq suddenly it's all, "He's entitled to his opinion. It's not an article of the Faith. I'm allowed to disagree." And so on.

Convenient.

[atheling]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1640837' date='Aug 28 2008, 05:42 PM']Fair enough.

Ohhhhhh, right...I almost forgot: WMD. What a joke. The official 9/11 report that is hundreds of pages long and the size of a dictionary has already stated in its findings that there were no WMD. But that won't stop the "war supporters" from carring on about pieces of pipe and yellow cake. Meanwhile, the people of Darfur continue to be butchered to pieces while Bush golfs at Crawford.[/quote]

I guess Senator Rick Santorum is a liar, or you just don't pay much attention to the news:

WASHINGTON — The United States has found 500 chemical weapons in Iraq since 2003, and more weapons of mass destruction are likely to be uncovered, two Republican lawmakers said Wednesday.

[b]"We have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, chemical weapons," Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pa., said in a quickly called press conference late Wednesday afternoon[/b].

Reading from a declassified portion of a report by the National Ground Intelligence Center, a Defense Department intelligence unit, Santorum said: "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist."

Read the rest here:

[url="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html"]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html[/url]

[atheling]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1640842' date='Aug 28 2008, 05:46 PM']And you refuse to accept the fact that were this any OTHER opinion expressed by the Holy Father, conservative Catholics would be on it like white on rice..."The Holy Father said so, and he's the Vicar of Christ on earth and this may not be an article of the Faith but he's holy and we should take his opinions seriously." Yes, that is what we would do. Because we trust him and we respect him as a great thinker and a holy man. But when it comes to his opinion on Iraq suddenly it's all, "He's entitled to his opinion. It's not an article of the Faith. I'm allowed to disagree." And so on.

Convenient.[/quote]

I'm sorry, but in non ex cathedra cases, I may disagree. Your argumentum ad verecundium does not hold water. Even Pope Benedict has admitted that he is no authority on war or politics, and that they could be wrong on some of those issues.

I find your manner rude and condescending. Not to mention uncharitable. No wonder the other person said that you scare him to death. You like to bully people.

Well, I don't like being bullied, and I tend to stand up to them. Just as the US did to Saddam Hussein.

You may bluster and blow hard all you like. I won't be bullied by you.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1640841' date='Aug 28 2008, 06:44 PM'][url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=62687"]Arguably, a Just Warby Fr. John G. Yockey[/url][/quote]

First, I'll admit I stopped reading after the listing of the items found in Iraq. Not becuase I don't agree with the article regarding Saddam but because it was beside the point I have personally been trying to make, which is this:

The fact that SOME items were found in Iraq that could constitute ingredients for WMD, and the fact that Saddam was personally responsible for many brutal rapes/deaths/beatings of Iraqi critizens, and despite that fact that Saddam unjustly attacked his neighbors...none of this make it *just* that America invaded Iraq. We simply don't get to invade any country we like just because there are evil people running it!!! Sure, defense of the innocent and helpless is just, but there should be a global outcry like during the Nazi Holocaust or in Darfur. Everything which I have just outlined as done by Saddam has been done or is CURRENTLY being done (and, it is arguable, much worse things) by tyrannical and brutal regimes all around the world. But yet Bush did not invade those nations. He invaded Iraq.

So again, why not North Korea? Why not Sierra Leone when 3 years ago Muslims were raping and killing innocent people in their quest for access to the diamond mines (for money to fund Islamic jihad in Sierra Leone and across Africa)? Why not Nigeria? Why not Zimbabawe? Why not Sudan?

This list can go on and on. But those countries serve no purpose for our government.

I do not and will not accept the notion that the invasion of Iraq was just. I don't care how many good priests write articles defending it, while they casually sweep aside the opinion of the Vicar of Christ on earth.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1640857' date='Aug 28 2008, 07:56 PM']First, I'll admit I stopped reading after the listing of the items found in Iraq. Not becuase I don't agree with the article regarding Saddam but because it was beside the point I have personally been trying to make, which is this:

The fact that SOME items were found in Iraq that could constitute ingredients for WMD, and the fact that Saddam was personally responsible for many brutal rapes/deaths/beatings of Iraqi critizens, and despite that fact that Saddam unjustly attacked his neighbors...none of this make it *just* that America invaded Iraq. We simply don't get to invade any country we like just because there are evil people running it!!! Sure, defense of the innocent and helpless is just, but there should be a global outcry like during the Nazi Holocaust or in Darfur. Everything which I have just outlined as done by Saddam has been done or is CURRENTLY being done (and, it is arguable, much worse things) by tyrannical and brutal regimes all around the world. But yet Bush did not invade those nations. He invaded Iraq.

So again, why not North Korea? Why not Sierra Leone when 3 years ago Muslims were raping and killing innocent people in their quest for access to the diamond mines (for money to fund Islamic jihad in Sierra Leone and across Africa)? Why not Nigeria? Why not Zimbabawe? Why not Sudan?

This list can go on and on. But those countries serve no purpose for our government.

I do not and will not accept the notion that the invasion of Iraq was just. I don't care how many good priests write articles defending it, while they casually sweep aside the opinion of the Vicar of Christ on earth.[/quote]

I would have read your whole post but I stopped reading after the first sentence for some reason...

Again, this has jake diddly squat to do with the OT by the OP, but so what right not your problem is it.

[atheling]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1640857' date='Aug 28 2008, 05:56 PM']First, I'll admit I stopped reading after the listing of the items found in Iraq. Not becuase I don't agree with the article regarding Saddam but because it was beside the point I have personally been trying to make, which is this:

The fact that SOME items were found in Iraq that could constitute ingredients for WMD, and the fact that Saddam was personally responsible for many brutal rapes/deaths/beatings of Iraqi critizens, and despite that fact that Saddam unjustly attacked his neighbors...none of this make it *just* that America invaded Iraq. We simply don't get to invade any country we like just because there are evil people running it!!! Sure, defense of the innocent and helpless is just, but there should be a global outcry like during the Nazi Holocaust or in Darfur. Everything which I have just outlined as done by Saddam has been done or is CURRENTLY being done (and, it is arguable, much worse things) by tyrannical and brutal regimes all around the world. But yet Bush did not invade those nations. He invaded Iraq.

So again, why not North Korea? Why not Sierra Leone when 3 years ago Muslims were raping and killing innocent people in their quest for access to the diamond mines (for money to fund Islamic jihad in Sierra Leone and across Africa)? Why not Nigeria? Why not Zimbabawe? Why not Sudan?

This list can go on and on. But those countries serve no purpose for our government.

I do not and will not accept the notion that the invasion of Iraq was just. I don't care how many good priests write articles defending it, while they casually sweep aside the opinion of the Vicar of Christ on earth.[/quote]


Now you are being dishonest. YOu claim that no WMDS were found. I show you that they were indeed found, and declared found by a good Catholic politician who is trustworthy. You now change your argument.

I find that this is a futile discussion, when you are being dishonest. Your rudeness is another reason why I will no longer engage in this.

Perhaps when you have the humility to see how uncharitable you are in your comments to me and to others, we can speak again.

Good luck, and God bless.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='atheling' post='1640854' date='Aug 28 2008, 06:54 PM']I'm sorry, but in non ex cathedra cases, I may disagree. Your argumentum ad verecundium does not hold water. Even Pope Benedict has admitted that he is no authority on war or politics, and that they could be wrong on some of those issues.

I find your manner rude and condescending. Not to mention uncharitable. No wonder the other person said that you scare him to death. You like to bully people.

Well, I don't like being bullied, and I tend to stand up to them. Just as the US did to Saddam Hussein.

You may bluster and blow hard all you like. I won't be bullied by you.[/quote]

I'm like Saddam Hussein? People at Phatmass are afraid for their lives becuase my opinions are against war, death and destruction.

You know what? You are the one who has no ground to stand on. You have exhausted your arguments and you have used up all your excuses. I am familiar with people like you. When you lose steam you begin direct, personal, insulting attacks that are utterly false and only designed to discredit the person you are arguing with, and attempt to smear them to the rest of the group. Like this:

[list]
[*]You're sort of like Saddam Hussein
[*]You bully people
[*]You scare people TO DEATH
[*]You bluster
[*]You blow hard
[*]You are rude
[*]You are condescending
[*]You are uncharitable
[*]Nothing you say holds water
[/list]


[u]That is a total of NINE personal attacks and insults[/u], all as your defend unborn children and the teaching of the Catholic Church and claim that you are about defending life. All becuase you can't stand that I'm against Bush's disaster in the Middle East.

What a joke.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[atheling]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1640868' date='Aug 28 2008, 06:03 PM']I'm like Saddam Hussein? People at Phatmass are afraid for their lives becuase my opinions are against war, death and destruction.

You know what? You are the one who has no ground to stand on. You have exhausted your arguments and you have used up all your excuses. I am familiar with people like you. When you lose steam you begin direct, personal, insulting attacks that are utterly false and only designed to discredit the person you are arguing with, and attempt to smear them to the rest of the group. Like this:

[list]
[*]You're sort of like Saddam Hussein
[*]You bully people
[*]You scare people TO DEATH
[*]You bluster
[*]You blow hard
[*]You are rude
[*]You are condescending
[*]You are uncharitable
[*]Nothing you say holds water
[/list]


[u]That is a total of NINE personal attacks and insults[/u], all as your defend unborn children and the teaching of the Catholic Church and claim that you are about defending life. As you callAll becuase you can't stand that I'm against Bush's disaster in the Middle East.

What a joke.[/quote]

You also forgot the dishonest part and the lack of humility.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='atheling' post='1640872' date='Aug 28 2008, 07:08 PM']You also forgot the dishonest part and the lack of humility.[/quote]


Talk to your mirror, Atheling.

And while you're leveling your insults against me (but that doesn't make YOU "uncharitable", for some reason) I hear you are making quite a name for yourself in other threads. Interesting, what with you being up to only 50 posts and all. I can only imagine what promises the next 50 hold for Phatmass.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[atheling]

[quote]Don't EVER refer to me as "part of the Bush Derangement Syndrome". How dare you. First of all that phrase was SPECIFICALLY invented by conservative Republicans to use against liberal Democrats. I am not a liberal Democrat. I am a conservative Republican and an orthodox Catholic. So don't you dare use insults against me like you're talking to some godless liberal. And I resent being called "deranged" in any case.[/quote]

Someone sounds very angry.

[quote]I have to believe you are deliberately evading becuase I happen to know I am a sharp, intelligent individual, and I know how to articulate my opinions, so I know that I have been clear but yet you are acting like you don't get it, or you are going off in another direction when you reply, or else you are completely ignoring certain of my points altogether. So since I don't think you're stupid, I have to assume you are willfully evading. In this case, it's impossible to continue this conversation with you.[/quote]

And you say I attacked you?

Look at the way you write. You're hostile, aggressive, authoritarian, and... maybe insecure.

No one brought up intelligence, but you did. You had to assert your "intelligence" and articulation which gives one pause to think - why?

Anyway, I'm done with this. If you don't think you sound like a blowhard blusterer, fine. But that's how you come across to me.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='atheling' post='1640898' date='Aug 28 2008, 08:30 PM']Anyway, I'm done with this.[/quote]

Ohhhhhhhhh, believe me, you are done with this.

[qfnol31]

I could be wrong...but I think this thread was originally how Bush has aided the pro-life cause.

Because he was not solely responsible for Iraq, and because Catholics can disagree on the just nature of wars, this does not completely blot out the President's aid for the pro-life cause.