What Bush Has Done For The Pro-life Cause In America

[Selah]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1636198' date='Aug 24 2008, 12:59 AM']Because being pro-life makes a person a good President? Or--let me rephrase the question--all it takes to be considered a good President is to be pro-life?

Ugh. So tired of this.

I like your icon, BTW.[/quote]

Sarcasm it was

Thanks, btw. It's St. Brigid

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Selah' post='1636777' date='Aug 24 2008, 03:51 PM']Sarcasm it was

Thanks, btw. It's St. Brigid [/quote]


Ah, yes. I see her special cross there. The Cross of St. Brigid.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1636772' date='Aug 24 2008, 03:47 PM']I'm sick of people claiming that the terrorists' problem with us was caused by Bush even though they've been killing our people overseas since before FORD was even in office.[/quote]

Oh, for heaven's sake!! You must be referring to me and let me remind you of something. I am the one who consistently accuses radical Islamic terrorists of having it out for us waaaaaaay before we went into Iraq. Further more, I never, ever, ever said that the terrorist problem was "caused by Bush". I said this war--this unnecessary, useless war--got them stirred up. I have said in other threads on this topic that, despite this, something would have stirred them up at some point anyway b/c that is how their thinking is engineered. I never "blamed" Bush, but it is an undeniable fact that the invasion of Iraq (and that's what it was: an INVASION) stirred up a hornet's nest in the middle east that we were not prepared to deal with. Where there any studies done before the invasion that even CONSIDERED what the Muslim reactions in and around Iraq might be after we invaded? NO. Bush got us into something that we were not equipped to deal with. Sure, we have to deal with insurgents and those insurgents are guilty for their own actions but when Bush invaded Iraq he NEVER considered what would happen. There were no insurgents when we invaded. They came as a RESULT of the invasion. He went in there all proud of bringing down that statue, and the hoisted himself up on that plane 3 weeks after the invasion and he was all like "mission accomplished" and oh boy, the mission was NOT accomplished. And 7 years into it, it's still not. Because. He. Didn't. Think. And he purposely ignored ALL our allies and the Americans who were saying "don't do it".

But that's fine. 'Cause HE'S AGAINST ABORTION!!!

And for all of you crying about thread-hicjacking and being off-topic...this IS on-topic. The thread is about Bush's pro-life record. Do you understand that the Church's teaching on what it means to be pro-life is about how we treat other human beings IN ALL spectrums of life? It's not just about abortion, euthanasia, stem cells, and IVF. How is invading a country that DID NOT provoke us to attack, thus bringing about the deaths of THOUSANDS of innocent people...how is this pro-life???

Many of you don't want to hear this. I understand. But these are the facts. You CANNOT claim "pro-life" and condone the actions of a man who invades a country, causing death, that did not ask to be liberated and which did not provoke an attack from us. Period. Pope John Paul II was vehemently against the invasion of Iraq. He WARNED about "grave consequences". Does that not mean ANYTHING to you Catholics??

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1636529' date='Aug 24 2008, 08:14 AM']Somehow, I really don't believe most of the people in American jails are there for traffic tickets.

That being said I could see legalizing marijuana under the premise that it would greatly reduce the prison population, not to mention gang violence.[/quote]

Actually, as a former employee of Correctional billing services, a telephone company that allowed families of inmates to receive collect calls from them, most were in for minor, and I do mean minor things, like having 2-3 grand in traffic tickets, or they were caught with a small amount of drugs for personal use.

Think of it like this.

In Canada, we have about 100,000 people in jail. If we did the multiplication, if our populations was the same as yours, it would be about 800,000 - 1,000,000 people in jail. . . Not 3,000,000. Reason why, we don't throw people with traffic tickets into jail, or someone who has a gram of weed. We fine them!

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1636873' date='Aug 24 2008, 06:46 PM']Oh, for heaven's sake!! You must be referring to me and let me remind you of something. I am the one who consistently accuses radical Islamic terrorists of having it out for us waaaaaaay before we went into Iraq. Further more, I never, ever, ever said that the terrorist problem was "caused by Bush". I said this war--this unnecessary, useless war--got them stirred up. I have said in other threads on this topic that, despite this, something would have stirred them up at some point anyway b/c that is how their thinking is engineered. I never "blamed" Bush, but it is an undeniable fact that the invasion of Iraq (and that's what it was: an INVASION) stirred up a hornet's nest in the middle east that we were not prepared to deal with. Where there any studies done before the invasion that even CONSIDERED what the Muslim reactions in and around Iraq might be after we invaded? NO. Bush got us into something that we were not equipped to deal with. Sure, we have to deal with insurgents and those insurgents are guilty for their own actions but when Bush invaded Iraq he NEVER considered what would happen. There were no insurgents when we invaded. They came as a RESULT of the invasion. He went in there all proud of bringing down that statue, and the hoisted himself up on that plane 3 weeks after the invasion and he was all like "mission accomplished" and oh boy, the mission was NOT accomplished. And 7 years into it, it's still not. Because. He. Didn't. Think. And he purposely ignored ALL our allies and the Americans who were saying "don't do it".

But that's fine. 'Cause HE'S AGAINST ABORTION!!!

And for all of you crying about thread-hicjacking and being off-topic...this IS on-topic. The thread is about Bush's pro-life record. Do you understand that the Church's teaching on what it means to be pro-life is about how we treat other human beings IN ALL spectrums of life? It's not just about abortion, euthanasia, stem cells, and IVF. How is invading a country that DID NOT provoke us to attack, thus bringing about the deaths of THOUSANDS of innocent people...how is this pro-life???

Many of you don't want to hear this. I understand. But these are the facts. You CANNOT claim "pro-life" and condone the actions of a man who invades a country, causing death, that did not ask to be liberated and which did not provoke an attack from us. Period. Pope John Paul II was vehemently against the invasion of Iraq. He WARNED about "grave consequences". Does that not mean ANYTHING to you Catholics??[/quote]

Okay, I definitely remember stating [i]somewhere[/i] in that reply that was miraculously reduced from a good-sized paragraph to about one statement (I wonder how THAT happened, maybe if I just imagine...) that I thought it would be a good thing to get off the topic of things that don't have to do with millions of babies resting peacefully in their mothers' wombs and onto how sweet President Bush is for basically sticking it to the abortifascists in this country who have this uncurvable penchant for mass murdering children.

I still kinda sorta wanna stick to THAT and not go into all the mumbo jumbo about how Bush [i]possibly[/i] screwed America and "thousands" of other people over.

The OPer had some great things to say, let's keep that going.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1636934' date='Aug 24 2008, 06:44 PM']Okay, I definitely remember stating [i]somewhere[/i] in that reply that was miraculously reduced from a good-sized paragraph to about one statement (I wonder how THAT happened, maybe if I just imagine...) that I thought it would be a good thing to get off the topic of things that don't have to do with millions of babies resting peacefully in their mothers' wombs and onto how sweet President Bush is for basically sticking it to the abortifascists in this country who have this uncurvable penchant for mass murdering children.

I still kinda sorta wanna stick to THAT and not go into all the mumbo jumbo about how Bush [i]possibly[/i] screwed America and "thousands" of other people over.

The OPer had some great things to say, let's keep that going. [/quote]

Well enough. But I do love how you can blithely ignore the fact that thousands of innocent people, inlcuding children, have died as a result of our actions in Iraq, but that's okay because Bush doesn't allow sterilization and forced abortions on women in Africa. The latter of which, I do commend him for.

[Norseman82]

In an attempt to get the bus back on the road to Cuba and the plane to Luton:

[quote name='qfnol31' post='1635991' date='Aug 23 2008, 09:55 PM']Mods, this isn't really about the politics of this year, but if it needs moved please move it.

The rate of abortions and number of abortions:
We were promised by Democrats that Bush would hurt the pro-life cause and that both Gore and Kerry would lower the number of abortions. Well, we can see now that at least the first claim was a resounding false.

[url="http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-01-16-abortion-rates_N.htm"]http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-0...ion-rates_N.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.alanguttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html"]http://www.alanguttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html[/url]

The number of abortions per year has dropped over 8% between 2000 and 2005.

He got a partial-birth abortion ban to pass in Congress, which he then signed.

He pushed for abstinence-only education in schools in the face of all who wanted contraception taught as the norm.

We no longer fund abortions overseas (especially through UNICEF and the UN).

The government no longer funds embryonic stem-cell research by Bush's executive order.

Bush vetoed two different bills pushing for federal funding of embryonic stem-cell research.

Bush put two strongly pro-life (and Catholic!) justices in the Supreme Court who have upheld the federal partial-birth-abortion ban. If you remember in the early 00s, a state version was struck down. Sandra Day O'Connor being replaced by Alito made a huge difference.

He also signed into effect the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act and the Unborn Victims of Violence Act.

He has been very strong in fighting against any human cloning.

He has put many

His health and human services department said that any health care provider can refuse any part in abortions. This is a huge victory for the cause and for religion!

He has made his entire presidency in favour of the pro-life movement.


Now I know that people will try to mention capital punishment, the Iraq War, and torture.

First, capital punishment is and should remain state-based except in cases of national issues. In his years as President, Bush has only signed for one execution. This is a far cry from the many that people thought he would support.

As far as the Iraq War goes, the President was not the only person who supported us going to war. Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, and Joe Biden all voted to go to Iraq. And Bill Clinton was even in support of the Iraq War. Now they have all turned around and called it a mistake, blaming it all on the President as their scapegoat. Sure, maybe it was a mistake; however, over 75% of Americans seemed to make this mistake and it's not fair blaming it specifically on the President. Plus, this post isn't about the war, but about the pro-life cause here in America.

Finally, thought it isn't always directly connected, we come to Guantanamo Bay. Here I feel safe in criticizing the President's policy. I find it quite disturbing. It is something I hope he changed his mind on.

But as far as what he has done for the pro-life cause, we can rejoice to have had such a supporter. No, he wasn't perfect. No, looking back not everything went as it probably should have. Yet, let us not criticize too sharply with 20/20 hindsight and let us appreciate what he has done for us.

President Bush has done more for the pro-life cause than any President since 1973. Deo gratias.[/quote]

Another thing positive that I don't think was mentioned is this: federal employees now have an option for health insurance that does not cover abortions (I also believe it doesn't cover contraceptives, if I remember correctly). I don't have a link, I just remember reading about it a year or two ago somewhere.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1636579' date='Aug 24 2008, 09:44 AM']wow, then that makes it totally okay.. how could you even make this argument?[/quote]

I'm just saying don't blame him alone for a mistake almost everyone else also made.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1636943' date='Aug 24 2008, 07:52 PM']Well enough. But I do love how you can blithely ignore the fact that thousands of innocent people, inlcuding children, have died as a result of our actions in Iraq, but that's okay because Bush doesn't allow sterilization and forced abortions on women in Africa. The latter of which, I do commend him for.[/quote]


I agree that Bush is not pro-life and that pro-life is more than just how a person views abortion. Its about all human life. A child/teenager/adult getting killed in Iraq is no different than an abortion in america.


Now the question is, who to vote for in this next election. YOur 2 canadates are both anti-life. So I guess it would seem, niether are ok to vote for according to the Catholic church.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1636873' date='Aug 24 2008, 05:46 PM']Pope John Paul II was vehemently against the invasion of Iraq. He WARNED about "grave consequences". Does that not mean ANYTHING to you Catholics??[/quote]
That's true. I always wondered about this whole thing... I don't know the Iraq issue as well, being in Canada, so technically not involved...
...but if John Paul II was very much against the Iraq War, I don't see why we have such good reason to be for it.

[hérisson]

[quote name='qfnol31' post='1636993' date='Aug 25 2008, 03:28 AM']I'm just saying don't blame him alone for a mistake almost everyone else also made.[/quote]

That's not true : in the rest of the world, in most Nato countries and in Europe, the vast majority of people and political leaders were against the war, but Bush prefered to listen to other voices...

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='hérisson' post='1637393' date='Aug 25 2008, 03:32 AM']That's not true : in the rest of the world, in most Nato countries and in Europe, the vast majority of people and political leaders were against the war, but Bush prefered to listen to other voices...[/quote]

Voices called "my ego".

And you are right--most of the known world was against this. And I personally find it unforgiveable how he dragged our allies into it. The Japanese people were outraged that their country was made to get involved in a conflict that had ZERO, ZILCH, NADA to do with them, but their PM felt he could not say no to Bush because Japan needs a good relationship with America. I find it unforgiveable that our allies were manipulated in this way.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1637367' date='Aug 25 2008, 01:32 AM']That's true. I always wondered about this whole thing... I don't know the Iraq issue as well, being in Canada, so technically not involved...
...but if John Paul II was very much against the Iraq War, I don't see why we have such good reason to be for it.[/quote]


This is where the obstinate Catholics do one of two things:

1: Insist they have no moral obligation to follow the Pope on his "personal beliefs" (yet they wouldn't use this argument with 98% of the Pope's other "personal beliefs")
2: Outright ignore the fact that JPII was against the war and even outspoken about it

That's what you will get from Catholics in America who obstinately refuse to accept that Bush was wrong, wrong, wrong in invading Iraq.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1637348' date='Aug 25 2008, 12:50 AM']I agree that Bush is not pro-life and that pro-life is more than just how a person views abortion. Its about all human life. A child/teenager/adult getting killed in Iraq is no different than an abortion in america.


Now the question is, who to vote for in this next election. YOur 2 canadates are both anti-life. So I guess it would seem, niether are ok to vote for according to the Catholic church.[/quote]

I won't be voting for either McCain or Obama unless Romney is chosen for VP and does/says something really outstanding in the next couple months. Otherwise, I will write someone in. Or something.

Bush is not totally anti-life. I'm not going to go that far. I am only saying that Catholics need to be more responible about advocating for life in all its forms, not just for the unborn--who are the most innocent and helpless.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1637423' date='Aug 25 2008, 06:43 AM']I won't be voting for either McCain or Obama unless Romney is chosen for VP and does/says something really outstanding in the next couple months. Otherwise, I will write someone in. Or something.[/quote]
Glad I don't have to pick in this.