What Bush Has Done For The Pro-life Cause In America

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1636343' date='Aug 24 2008, 12:23 AM']Here's why: Because you don't take my words at face value. I'm trying to have a conversation about a TOPIC. Instead of just reading and digesting what I'm saying, you start trying to interpret my tone or my mood or whatever it is you're doing, and your interpretation comes out negative. That is not my fault. I haven't done anything. It's you who are interpreting my words (or tone, whatever) to this negative result and then blaming me for it. There is nothing going on here, I can assure you.[/quote]
I'm sorry.

[Nihil Obstat]

It's the way I read and understand things online, without having face to face subleties.

[dairygirl4u2c]

one of the worst things bush has done,,, is want to give large tax cuts even back when the economy was good. tax cuts at the expense of us going into debt.

but anyway,,, i think the initial post was a little making things out to be mroe than they are,,, as per just the abortion stuff:

-The number of abortions per year has dropped over 8% between 2000 and 2005.
the president doesn't reduce the number of abortions. his mentality surely helps, but that's mostly a cultural thing.

-He got a partial-birth abortion ban to pass in Congress, which he then signed.
that does't reduce the number of abortions though. even the court recognized that. they just have the abortion, and then remove it. it was mostly an ideological victory more than anything else.

-We no longer fund abortions overseas (especially through UNICEF and the UN).
doesn't mean they don't occur, just means we don't fund them. my point is that it might not be that big of a victory. it's a victory, but how big is it really? i mean i don't know, not saying it's not.

-The government no longer funds embryonic stem-cell research by Bush's executive order.
the government will eventually fund them though when the right president gets in, which will happen eventually. ocngress supports it, and the american people support it. unless other nonembryonic cells are just as good and shown to be so,,, it's going to happen eventually. postponing the inevitable.
plus, i personally think it's not as big of a deal of people think,,, given that it'd be only stem cells that would be disgarded anyway.

-Bush put two strongly pro-life (and Catholic!) justices in the Supreme Court who have upheld the federal partial-birth-abortion ban. If you remember in the early 00s, a state version was struck down. Sandra Day O'Connor being replaced by Alito made a huge difference.
this one may be significant. only time will tell. so far, not a whole lot has changed. (if i vote for mccain, it'd prob be on the reasoning that they're close a lot alike anyway,,, at least mccain appears to be maybe prolife enough to put prolife justices on there,,, tho like i said before,,, that last three republican presidents have not done very welll,,, and mccain said before he don't want it overturned,,, so i doubt he'll do better. i'm still not sure.)

-He also signed into effect the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act and the Unborn Victims of Violence Act.
this was a bill that congress unanimously agreed on. even NARAL, the notorious abortion grou, supported it. bush couldn't really take too much credit since he only happneed to be the president when it passed. (i can hear eople saying obama might have vetoed it. i dont think he would have,,, but it's beside the point of this post,,, which is that bush hasn't really done a whole lot that's all that signifiant here)

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1636338' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:19 AM']It's not, though. This is the argument. These criminals clearly aren't concerned about dying.[/quote]

I agree today.

Most murders come from the drug trafficking segment of our population. They want power, and will do anything to get it. They will not respect authority, and in that line of business, money is easily accessible, so high priced lawyers can get them out of just about anything.

The next group would be organized crime, which again, lots of money, lots of lawyers, and they believe that they will get away with it.

And the next group after that, if any better, would be the serial killers, who will continue to kill to curb their desire to kill periodically. They don't care if they live or die, all that matters is the hunt, the taste of exhiliaration, and the joy of murdering someone and how it will fulfill their fantasies and their needs!

The common citizen who gets angry, and thinks of hurting someone in that way, will come to his senses, and will say - life in prison or the death penalty, I'm not going to risk it.

So, I agree. The people who are more likely to murder someone will not care for a second about the death penalty, because they believe they will get away with it or they don't care period because they're so mentally screwed up they wouldn't care about anything but fulfilling a sick desire!

Which goes to my thoughts about those who put their refuge in lies. God will eventually revoke what they believe, and they will find there is no place to hide!

Edited August 24, 2008 by MakeYouThink

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1636191' date='Aug 23 2008, 10:57 PM']Surely you meant to write "isn't".

The death penalty has done NOTHING to deter crime. In fact America has grown ever more violent by the year. Some of the most heinous and unimaginable crimes in the world (aside from major things like genocide and abortion) happen right here on our own soil. So let's just keep putting human beings to death--like putting down sick animals. Yep, that'll make things better. Not![/quote]

I said the death penalty's a good resource. It can't be effective in doing something if you don't untilize it. As the OP writer said, Bush has only ordered one execution and there are still murder cases in districts that the death penalty isn't persued in, so how can it deter murder? If we actually took this and used it as a selling point by actually going for something in a district where there's some wacko liberal judge who'll take their appeal and let them go free to kill somebody else, it actually WOULD deter murder. Besides, to say that the death penalty hasn't deterred murder is ridiculous! "Hm, if I kill this person, I won't be alive to tell the tale in a few months". As Ann Coulter said "If the death penalty doesn't deter murder, how come Michael Moore is still alive and I'm not on death row?" Most of the murders that are commited are SENSELESS because that's just the mental state of the murderer: SENSELESS. Why don't we get rid of these know-nothing liberals running our courts and then put these people away so we won't even need a legal provision to keep them from killing again. The Church makes it clear that her teaching concerning the death penalty is a nuanced teaching. If we can't keep people safe from people who have already commited murder, gone to a trial, and been convicted, then what do YOU propose we do?

And you want heinous and unimaginable crimes?

Read up on China where the government's killing people, forcing abortions on women, and sending old folks to "reeducation camps". You want heinous crimes? Go to Darfur and see how long you last [i]sans[/i] bodyguard. Why are people like you so willing to trash America for things that aren't even the fault of those who love this country? It's the liberals in and over our court systems who "love" America like John Edwards "loved" his wife who cause the problems.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1636382' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:49 AM']I said the death penalty's a good resource. It can't be effective in doing something if you don't untilize it. As the OP writer said, Bush has only ordered one execution and there are still murder cases in districts that the death penalty isn't persued in, so how can it deter murder? If we actually took this and used it as a selling point by actually going for something in a district where there's some wacko liberal judge who'll take their appeal and let them go free to kill somebody else, it actually WOULD deter murder. Besides, to say that the death penalty hasn't deterred murder is ridiculous! "Hm, if I kill this person, I won't be alive to tell the tale in a few months". As Ann Coulter said "If the death penalty doesn't deter murder, how come Michael Moore is still alive and I'm not on death row?" Most of the murders that are commited are SENSELESS because that's just the mental state of the murderer: SENSELESS. Why don't we get rid of these know-nothing liberals running our courts and then put these people away so we won't even need a legal provision to keep them from killing again. The Church makes it clear that her teaching concerning the death penalty is a nuanced teaching. If we can't keep people safe from people who have already commited murder, gone to a trial, and been convicted, then what do YOU propose we do?

And you want heinous and unimaginable crimes?

Read up on China where the government's killing people, forcing abortions on women, and sending old folks to "reeducation camps". You want heinous crimes? Go to Darfur and see how long you last [i]sans[/i] bodyguard. Why are people like you so willing to trash America for things that aren't even the fault of those who love this country? It's the liberals in and over our court systems who "love" America like John Edwards "loved" his wife who cause the problems.[/quote]

The death penalty will only prevent normal people from committing murder. Most murders will happen from the drug trade, organized crime, and serial killer segments of the population, two of which will believe they have enough money to get out of trouble, and the later who won't really care.

Average citizen's don't think about murdering people in cold blood!

When was the last time you thought of murdering someone and how to do it?

Edited August 24, 2008 by MakeYouThink

[KnightofChrist]

Again most murders do care about their own life. Those that break in houses will purposely not break into a house they know has a gun in it, because they are afraid of being shot, thus afraid of being harmed or killed.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1636174' date='Aug 23 2008, 10:53 PM']Well, despite his pro-life record, he's messed up in tons of other ways and is without a doubt one of the worst Presidents ever. Having voted for him, I feel I have a right to say that. Proof that being pro-life doesn't make you a good President. He got us into a war that has cost trillions of dollars of taxpayers dollars, stirred up a hornet's nest with the radical Muslims, a war that has cost thousands of senseless deaths of American soldiers, Iraqi civilians and coalition forces. He has made promises about securing our borders ("We're going to build a fence" and then wouldn't give the money to build), he's pandered to Mexico's President. He turned his back on Israel and failed in his promises to support them in their agenda to defend their land and their nation, instead sending the back-stabber Condi Rice over there to pander to the Palestinians and DEMAND that Israel make MORE concessions that it already had. He's made America the laughingstock of the whole world. I mean, come on. When our own ALLIES are mad at us, you know something is wrong. He has not been good President and indeed has delivered America 8 years of FAIL. I'm so fed up with it and the worst part is there is nothing--nothing--to look forward to come November.[/quote]

Oh, please! You have the RIGHT to say he's the worst president ever because you VOTED for him? That's about as legit as those know-nothing, blowhards in Congress like Kerry, Clinton, and Reid saying that they voted for the war before they were against it. So what? They have a legit excuse to be against it because they caused it to happen?

And those deaths weren't senseless. You know what? I'm going to pose a dare to you. I want you to walk up to the mother, father, sister, brother, loved-one of a soldier who died and say "sir/ma'am, I just thought you should know that your son's/daughter's death was senseless". Stirred up a beehive?? They've been trying to kill us for the past nearly three decades and you think WE started something??

And you think there's NOTHING to look forward to come November? Why so pessemistic? Don't worry cmotherofpirl, it's not a jab, it's my take on the Joker's "why so serious" catch-phrase.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1636390' date='Aug 24 2008, 12:56 AM']The death penalty will only prevent normal people from committing murder. Most murders will happen from the drug trade, organized crime, and serial killer segments of the population, two of which will believe they have enough money to get out of trouble, and the later who won't really care.

Average citizen's don't think about murdering people in cold blood!

When was the last time you thought of murdering someone and how to do it?[/quote]

Well, I don't know, it depends on where you live. I live in the People's Republic of Ann Arbor where virtually no one owns a gun for anything and there's about an average of 1 murder a year. I listen to the news on TV all coming from Detroit and you can guaruntee that once each week you're going to hear about a murder that was different from the last one. I was just watching it not too long ago tonight and the local MSNBC affiliate in Detroit was doing a segment on homeless people being brutally beaten to death for fun by normal people like you and me, right on the street.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1636393' date='Aug 24 2008, 12:58 AM']Again most murders do care about their own life. Those that break in houses will purposely not break into a house they know has a gun in it, because they are afraid of being shot, thus afraid of being harmed or killed.[/quote]

You have this mentality that most murders are committed by random people because they are angry, or thieves who break into houses.

This is farther from the truth. Most murders revolve around the drug trade in these days. One gang fights another gang for territory so they can peddle their poisons. Innocent people get caught in the cross fire as people unload a machine gun in a drive by shooting. These people don't think they will get punished because they have lots of money to pay off the best criminal defense lawyers in the business, and they get to go home without any punishment.

Again, the next would be organized crime, which not only involves itself in the drug trade, but prostitution, gambling, and a few other illegal activities. Again, they have huge amounts of cash, so they can hire the best criminal defense lawyers to keep them out of jail!!

The third most likely group to commit murder is Serial Killers, who plan out they're murders carefully, and will continue to murder until they are stopped. They don't care if they get caught, because they murder because it fulfills a sick need and desire in them.

The only group of people that wouldn't murder people because of the death penalty would be the average citizen, who doesn't have a lot of money. That includes petty criminals. They don't want to murder people. Although they might steal, or break the law in other areas, they would know murder is asking for big trouble. And the average citizen wouldn't murder either. We may get angry at people at some time, but murder wouldn't enter our heads to begin with, and if it did, we would know - hey, I can only go so far or I might get caught and killed!

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1636399' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:03 AM']Well, I don't know, it depends on where you live. I live in the People's Republic of Ann Arbor where virtually no one owns a gun for anything and there's about an average of 1 murder a year. I listen to the news on TV all coming from Detroit and you can guaruntee that once each week you're going to hear about a murder that was different from the last one. I was just watching it not too long ago tonight and the local MSNBC affiliate in Detroit was doing a segment on homeless people being brutally beaten to death for fun by normal people like you and me, right on the street.[/quote]
In my city I have good reason to believe that there is a full scale gang war on right now. There've been drive bys and many shootings just recently... when knife murders used to be far, far more common than gun crime.
I tend to agree with MakeYouThink (although that doesn't seem to happen often. ) that a lot of muders these days (in the West) are going to be revolving around organized crime. Look at the news. Random murder is very very rare. Almost always it's drug or gang related.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1636399' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:03 AM']Well, I don't know, it depends on where you live. I live in the People's Republic of Ann Arbor where virtually no one owns a gun for anything and there's about an average of 1 murder a year. I listen to the news on TV all coming from Detroit and you can guaruntee that once each week you're going to hear about a murder that was different from the last one. I was just watching it not too long ago tonight and the local MSNBC affiliate in Detroit was doing a segment on homeless people being brutally beaten to death for fun by normal people like you and me, right on the street.[/quote]

Yeah, right. If people go out and kill homeless people on the street, they are not normal like you or me! If a group of people like that go out, it is discrimination, like the KKK! Are members of the KKK who murder minorities just like you or me? NO! I consider the KKK or the groups of normal people who kill homeless people on the street nothing less the a serial killers anonoymous club! They have no decency and the ability to tell the difference between right and wrong, and therefore meet all the criteria of serial killer in my eyes. But these are not the majority of people who kill people!

When I turn on the news, in Toronto, there has been a lot of murders for the past couple of years, and it was gang warfare that is the cause, and drugs was the means for them to continue to commit violence!

I know you are well meaning, but I am talking about the percentages. The death penalty will not deter those involved in organized crime or the drug trade because they believe they have enough money to escape justice, and it will not deter serial killers, and these are the groups of people who constitute the most murders. If I am mistaken, someone please show me stats of who constitutes the most murders!

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1636413' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:11 AM']In my city I have good reason to believe that there is a full scale gang war on right now. There've been drive bys and many shootings just recently... when knife murders used to be far, far more common than gun crime.
I tend to agree with MakeYouThink (although that doesn't seem to happen often. ) that a lot of muders these days (in the West) are going to be revolving around organized crime. Look at the news. Random murder is very very rare. Almost always it's drug or gang related.[/quote]

Okay, that's good and fine. I don't know exact statistics so I'm not going to speak on that. All I'm trying to say is that our court system has gone to the dogs with this mentality that you can't punish anybody. Somebody gets convicted, they go for an appeal, and then some judge lets them go. Until we get these useless judges out of our courts, can't we at least make a legal provision that keeps us safe. As I said before, the Church's teaching on capital punishment is nuanced and allows it in a situation in which we need to protect ourselves from murderers. If these gangs keep killing, getting convicted of crimes, and getting locked up, then why is violence allegedly happening more often? Can't we lock 'em up faster than they can grow and spread? It's not like there are hundreds of gang members running around in one place.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1636423' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:19 AM']Okay, that's good and fine. I don't know exact statistics so I'm not going to speak on that. All I'm trying to say is that our court system has gone to the dogs with this mentality that you can't punish anybody. Somebody gets convicted, they go for an appeal, and then some judge lets them go. Until we get these useless judges out of our courts, can't we at least make a legal provision that keeps us safe. As I said before, the Church's teaching on capital punishment is nuanced and allows it in a situation in which we need to protect ourselves from murderers. If these gangs keep killing, getting convicted of crimes, and getting locked up, then why is violence allegedly happening more often? Can't we lock 'em up faster than they can grow and spread? It's not like there are hundreds of gang members running around in one place.[/quote]
Yea, well I'm not going to argue with that. Not saying I *necessarily* agree. Just not willing to get into this debate at the moment.
Just thought I should throw my little bit in.
It's true, the position is nuanced... I'm not going to pretend to have my mind made up.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1636421' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:17 AM']Yeah, right. If people go out and kill homeless people on the street, they are not normal like you or me! If a group of people like that go out, it is discrimination, like the KKK! Are members of the KKK who murder minorities just like you or me? NO! I consider the KKK or the groups of normal people who kill homeless people on the street nothing less the a serial killers anonoymous club! They have no decency and the ability to tell the difference between right and wrong, and therefore meet all the criteria of serial killer in my eyes. But these are not the majority of people who kill people!

When I turn on the news, in Toronto, there has been a lot of murders for the past couple of years, and it was gang warfare that is the cause, and drugs was the means for them to continue to commit violence!

I know you are well meaning, but I am talking about the percentages. The death penalty will not deter those involved in organized crime or the drug trade because they believe they have enough money to escape justice, and it will not deter serial killers, and these are the groups of people who constitute the most murders. If I am mistaken, someone please show me stats of who constitutes the most murders![/quote]

Well, as well-meaning as you are with wanting to correctly compartmentalize people (nothing wrong with it), I just don't think it's the law's job to psychoanalyze them. It's our job to put them away, and if a liberal court system isn't willing to put them away for good or at least until they can get their act together, then what do YOU propose we do to keep people safe from repeat offenders?