What Bush Has Done For The Pro-life Cause In America

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='qfnol31' post='1640960' date='Aug 28 2008, 09:49 PM']this does not completely blot out the President's aid for the pro-life cause.[/quote]

Never said it did. Only reinforcing the full meaning of what it means to be pro-life according to Church teaching. It is the revolt against the culture of death.

[qfnol31]

But we shouldn't shoot our cause in the foot by always focusing on how far we have to go every time we have a victory. We should first try to make sure our victories last.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='atheling' post='1640854' date='Aug 28 2008, 06:54 PM']No wonder the other person said that you scare him to death.[/quote]
You shouldn't have said that. That's not anything to do with you.
What I said was meant in the spirit of humour. Don't use it in ways it wasn't intended.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1641214' date='Aug 29 2008, 01:27 AM']You shouldn't have said that. That's not anything to do with you.
What I said was meant in the spirit of humour. Don't use it in ways it wasn't intended.[/quote]

Oh come on, don't you fear for your life, young one? I might reach through the computer screen, all the wway through your DSL or dial-up and get you!

(rolls @@ eyes)

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='qfnol31' post='1641036' date='Aug 28 2008, 10:10 PM']But we shouldn't shoot our cause in the foot by always focusing on how far we have to go every time we have a victory. We should first try to make sure our victories last.[/quote]

And I didn't do that. I have discussed Bush and his abortion views numerous times on other threads in the past. I don't need to do that every time Bush is mentioned. I don't need to prove anything to anyone in this regard. I have been more than supportive and defensive of the President on his abortion record. However, when a thread is started heralding him as a great pro-lifer while we are entering our 8th year engaged in an unjust and non-provoked war that has caused the deaths of thousands of people, I can't sit here while everybody happily overlooks this.

It would even be more truthful and realistic for pro-lifers to say he has done a great job on life issues but has delivered major FAIL when it comes to Iraq. At least be honest. But b/c he is perceived by many pro-lifers as their warrior against abortion, they refuse to criticize him for ANYTHING. Even as our soldiers are coming home in body bags.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[StColette]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1640837' date='Aug 28 2008, 07:42 PM']Fair enough.

But the Church certainly has a view/teaching on unjust wars and there has never been proof that the invasion of Iraq even came close to being defined as a just war. Not to mention, it was never. a. war. in. the. first. place. People are so anesthesised by 7 years of politicians and mainstream media referring to it as "The Iraq War" that nearly everyone has forgotten that it was NEVER a war. It was an invasion. That is NOT the same as a war. It became a war when the insurgents and radicals and terrorists came out of their snakeholes like a swarm of locusts. This invasion was unprovoked. And unlike the situation in Darfur, the Iraqi citizens did not ask us to "liberate" them. If it was just about liberating a people from a brutal tyrant, why didn't we liberate the North Koreans? Or any number of the African nations that are living and dying under brutal rule? Why Iraq? Ohhhhhh, right...I almost forgot: WMD. What a joke. The official 9/11 report that is hundreds of pages long and the size of a dictionary has already stated in its findings that there were no WMD. But that won't stop the "war supporters" from carring on about pieces of pipe and yellow cake. Meanwhile, the people of Darfur continue to be butchered to pieces while Bush golfs at Crawford.[/quote]


Believe me I'm in agreement with you about the Iraq War. I have an older brother who is serving his third tour of duty over there right now, so I'm not unpatriotic to say the least either. My reason for pointing out that it is the opinion of the Holy Father and not the opinion of the Church universal is because I've seen the opinion of the Holy Father on this matter be used to call Catholics who disagree for one reason or the other "bad Catholics" etc.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='StColette' post='1641308' date='Aug 29 2008, 09:49 AM']Believe me I'm in agreement with you about the Iraq War. I have an older brother who is serving his third tour of duty over there right now, so I'm not unpatriotic to say the least either. My reason for pointing out that it is the opinion of the Holy Father and not the opinion of the Church universal is because I've seen the opinion of the Holy Father on this matter be used to call Catholics who disagree for one reason or the other "bad Catholics" etc.[/quote]

I think the Holy Father's personal opinions are respected when they suit people. When he allowed girl altar servers, the liberals cried tears of joy as if JPII gave them a personal gift. Yet they would ignore and even mock and deride his opinions on faith and moral issues. It's the same when JPII urged the Western nations to forgive the debt of third world countries. Again, the social justice liberals loved to quote him on that. While ignoring his opinions on morals. The same goes for Catholics who support the "war" but don't want to give serious weight to the Holy Father's opinion.

P.S.

My brother--a former Marine and now former Army National Guard--also served in Iraq. He's a very dyed-in-the-wool patriotic Republican. When he came home he said Iraq was a disaster and the biggest mistake we ever made.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[StColette]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1641325' date='Aug 29 2008, 10:10 AM']P.S.

My brother--a former Marine and now former Army National Guard--also served in Iraq. He's a very dyed-in-the-wool patriotic Republican. When he came home he said Iraq was a disaster and the biggest mistake we ever made.[/quote]

*hijack*

Mine had the same opinion!

Now back to the regularly scheduled program

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='StColette' post='1641335' date='Aug 29 2008, 09:17 AM']*hijack*

Mine had the same opinion!

Now back to the regularly scheduled program [/quote]

WOW.

*Okay, back on-topic*

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='atheling' post='1640854' date='Aug 28 2008, 07:54 PM']I'm sorry, but in non ex cathedra cases, I may disagree. Your argumentum ad verecundium does not hold water. Even Pope Benedict has admitted that he is no authority on war or politics, and that they could be wrong on some of those issues.[/quote]

To be fair, we are not bound only to obey those things declared ex cathedra.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1636191' date='Aug 23 2008, 11:57 PM']Surely you meant to write "isn't".

The death penalty has done NOTHING to deter crime. In fact America has grown ever more violent by the year. Some of the most heinous and unimaginable crimes in the world (aside from major things like genocide and abortion) happen right here on our own soil. So let's just keep putting human beings to death--like putting down sick animals. Yep, that'll make things better. Not![/quote]
Actually america has not become more violent by the year, that is absolutely absurd. Please try and check your facts before posting things like that.

Violent crime has been in decline for years, the murder rate has declined dramatically from its hight inthe early 90's and though it has gone up a bit in the last few years it is still much lower than it was in 1992 and 1993.

[url="http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_01.html"]http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_01.html[/url]

The actual data on the effects of capital punishment is extremly hard to mine, because to be frank it is heavily propagandized by both sides.

What is not hard to mine is the effect of concealed weapon carry laws---- they universaly cause a major drop in violent crimes in states where they come into effect. Thi leads to the conclusion that fear of death does indeed deter crime.... Perhaps if the death penalty is ineffectual it is because we use it to sparingly, and with too much delay for it to confer its deterant effect.

[SpareTime]

I can't believe I just spent all that time reading this thread.

My conclusions:

Aethla or however it is spelled, I have read your posts in other threads and you have a tendency to tell people their arguments don't make sense and question their Christian-ness and resort to personal attacks when you can't refute them. This is not a good debate tactic and everyone who reads this board can see right through it.

Madame V, I totally agree with you on everything you've said! I am tired of Bush being heralded as a pro-life hero when he is so obviously not a hero at all! It's despicable.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='SpareTime' post='1647880' date='Sep 4 2008, 11:44 PM']I can't believe I just spent all that time reading this thread.[/quote]

Guess you had some [i]Sparetime[/i]...