What I Think

[alimarie_11]

wow...this again has gotten wayy...off.

well not way. but...kinda side tracked.

unfortunately i can't stay to discuss it tonight.

but i just want to say...

why does it all have to be about sex?


most people are saying how the act is bla bla bla

but what if two people of the same sex Loveee eachother, with everything in them, and yearn to express it just as straight people can, but they can't. sure sure straight people wait till thier married. but gay people can't even marry in some cases. you are saying that everyone has their own problems and bla.

i just...its not fair at all, that because the person you Love, happens to be the same sex, you will not beable to experiance it the same as any other person could, unless you want to go to hell



ha


whew, well geeshhhhh this is certainly interesting, everyone's veiws and whatnot.

thank you all

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1637026' date='Aug 24 2008, 09:01 PM']I was clear to say the gay individuals relationship was seen as an abomination[/quote]

Abomination. Noun
1. anything abominable; anything greatly disliked or abhorred.
2. intense aversion or loathing; detestation: He regarded lying with abomination.
3. a vile, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit, etc.

If abomination = sin and homosexual relations = sin then yes, it is fair to say that homosexual relations = abomination.

[quote]I love Catholics. But I hate your religion. I despise it. It is a wicked, disgusting, vulgar and repugnant things that in a just world would be obliterated such that not a trace of this abomination of a religion would be left. The thought of it makes me sick because it is such a disgusting thing.

How is that to hear? Not to nice perhapse?

(I don't actually believe that about Catholicism btw I have most of the current Pope's books and have great respect for much of your religion. I am just trying to make a point)[/quote]

Oh, and what point is that? Split personalities?

Let's be honest here and say that you have no true understanding of Catholicism. Wrapping your mind around concepts that an infinite God has established is pretty mind boggling, yes? Sure it is. But that's where faith comes in. See, faith is this nifty little thing - we might not understand, but we embrace and trust, and with this God never leads us astray.

Anyway, your venomous hatred for my religion is no big surprise. Many people share your view. They're simply content with hating as opposed to actually make an attempt to understand the teachings. Oh, you've done some research, I'll give you credit. But you haven't researched to learn, you've researched to find more reasons to hate. No one is asking you to convert. No one is asking you to agree. But perhaps doing a little [i]more[/i] research will make it so that you [i]respectively[/i] disagree. But in reality, it's not what we agree with or what we disagree with, it's being obedient to Christ.

And what is your religion, if I may ask?

[quote]That is nice to hear. I don't think it helps the gay teen Catholic who is taught that his love for his boyfriend is disordered and expressing that love physically is an abomination before God. I am not gay, but I have seen a bit of the hell that is the lives of so many gay teens[/quote]

Bummer, huh?

I've put up plenty of fights with God. Do you think "it" (as in, Catholic teachings) helped me when I learned that I was being sinful and immoral by physically expressing my love with an old boyfriend? (Thank goodness God kept me from hitting that home run, if I may use that slang.) Do you think it helped me when I learned that if I didn't get to Confession and ended up dying in mortal sin, I was putting my very soul in jeopardy? How many of us kick and scream and beg and try to convince God (what a laughable idea) that He's wrong and that He can't possibly be against this, this, and that? We all have crosses. We all struggle with sin and temptation. All sin is disordered. No matter what ugly package sin comes in, it's disordered.

[quote]With respect, that's not even close to a comparison. You are not told your feelings are disordered. You do not have to grow up knowing that you will have to choose between risking your immortal soul to the physical unending torture of the hell you will be sent to by the loveing God by trying to express love through sexual relations, or living a life devoid of sexual contact of a loveing relationship.[/quote]

You're under the absolutely bizarre impression that God sends us to Hell. No, that's not true. But it's easy to point our finger at Him, isn't it, to put all the blame on Him and shirk our responsibilities? our culpability? When you sin, you consciously reject Jesus Christ and everything that He stands for. You say, "No God, sorry, I'm too cool to follow You, I'm doing this [b]my[/b] way."

And yeah, everyone grows up knowing that we either choose Hell - that is, disobedience to God - or we choose God (obedience). Even those who have never heard of God before can distinguish between right and wrong. It's human nature, God gave us those instincts. Life is all about choices. The biggest choices involve God.

Why are you speaking as though picking God or sexual contact is a tough, unfair decision (regardless whether it's homosexual or heterosexual)? God [b]is[/b] the loving relationship. This is a no-brainer. God wins, hands down. [b]Anyone[/b] who would pick [b]anything[/b] over God is crazy.

[quote]Glad you find such a major impact on so many lives so clear and black and white despite any actual evidense.[/quote]

I gave you evidence, you have just chosen to ignore it or discredit it, without actually giving it any thought.


[quote]Funny, very funny. The person you are commenting about is one of the more intelligent people I have meet on these boards, and yet you consider her a robot? If you knew the person you were talking too, you wouldn't make such a stupid comment![/quote]



[quote date='Aug 24 2008, 11:21 PM']I never called her a robot. I found it disturbing that she can preach something that has such a drastic impact on an individuals life, with absolutly no rational basis for her view beyond religious faith, and sleep soundly.[/quote]

Oh, you found what I said disturbing, yet you have no problem being disturbingly hostile and judgmental when it comes to my Catholic religion? Just clarifying.

I gave you rational basis.

Funny thing is, you haven't given me any. In fact, all you have done is refute everything everyone is saying. What's your rational basis?

Edited August 25, 2008 by HisChildForever

[Aloysius]

[quote name='alimarie_11' post='1637308' date='Aug 25 2008, 12:42 AM']wow...this again has gotten wayy...off.

well not way. but...kinda side tracked.

unfortunately i can't stay to discuss it tonight.

but i just want to say...

why does it all have to be about sex?


most people are saying how the act is bla bla bla

but what if two people of the same sex Loveee eachother, with everything in them, and yearn to express it just as straight people can, but they can't. sure sure straight people wait till thier married. but gay people can't even marry in some cases. you are saying that everyone has their own problems and bla.

i just...its not fair at all, that because the person you Love, happens to be the same sex, you will not beable to experiance it the same as any other person could, unless you want to go to hell



ha


whew, well geeshhhhh this is certainly interesting, everyone's veiws and whatnot.

thank you all[/quote]

love can be expressed and experienced in many different ways. have you ever experienced love for an ex-partner and seen it transform into a good friendship? or seen the love of a good friendship transform into a great relationship? these are often very difficult paths, but when it is true love it is worth it... perhaps for those who are attracted to the same sex and find someone they love then that love can transform into something non-romantic (for romantic actions are indeed all pointed at sex in some way, which is not necessarily bad because sex is beautiful when understood rightly and everything should point to that very beautiful thing) and really great, a deep and loving friendship. that is hard, and I wouldn't neessarily recommend it (in the same way I wouldn't necessarily recommend someone remaining friends with an ex) because it can lead to near occasions to sin, but if that is the path they take for the sake of love, it is a difficult path that will lead to something much more beautiful than the tearing of rectal tissue and unnatural unhealthy stimulation of the prostate through the wall of the anus.

do not scoff at friendship, friendship can be very deep and intimate and loving. i'm not talking facebook friends here, the word is very over-used. I myself have a list of "friends" that I keep and it is a very small list not because I don't have a lot of friends as our culture describes them but because this is a list of people whom I can never remove from the list because my love for them is unending... my list actually threatens plagues to anyone who would remove from the list lol

oh, and I'm not necessarily condemning those with homosexual inclinations to a life of celibacy. sexuality is NOT as rigid as modern society would have you to believe and the idea of exclusive homosexuality, ie that the person could never even considering either an also or an or with heterosexual sex, is false. those with homosexual inclinations often desire heterosexual relationships in many ways (this is scoffed at by some people as them having simply been conditioned all their lives to not want to be gay, but it's actually a natural human response)... there is the intellectual level which a large amount of gay people experience torment over because they do intellectually become attracted to the ideas of a spouse and family through the natural method, and then there is the animalistic attraction level which definitely can be developped... the question of whether the homosexual inclination can be completely diminished is different for every individual and it cannot always be because a person has become too deeply identified with it in the core of his psyche, but the development of heterosexual inclinations (thus becoming what our culture would deem "bi") is definitely not that hard of a process in most people and then it is as with anyone else, you find the mate you ought to have... you just have a larger pool of potential sex partners that you chemically might be interested in that would not make suitable mates and thus you ought to avoid.

people that argue for the idea that all with homosexual inclinations MUST be exclusively homosexual and never attempt to be exclusively gay cause JUST AS MUCH torment as those who go around indiscriminantly condemning all gays... the psyche is torn between two groups who are both equally guilty of pressuring the person unjustly. someone who has openly identified himself as gay in our culture, if they try to find a heterosexual life for themselves, are very immediately condemned by the other side. this pressure is JUST AS BAD... we all ought to say our shpiels about whether we think it's okay or not, but when you start pressuring indiivduals in those ways you just do damage to them and make it harder for them to really find true happiness (however you define that, either our way or the pro-gay way)

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1637279' date='Aug 24 2008, 10:12 PM']I'm exhausted and am makeing typeing errors, you'll swallow "Northwoods", we all have problems[/quote]

You are not making typos. A typo would be something like lkiing, or something like that. You however, like to spell things like making makeing, or typing typeing. . . .

And who cares if I like to keep the government accountable for the things I have learned about it? Get a life buddy!

[quote name='Hassan' post='1637279' date='Aug 24 2008, 10:12 PM']An individuals lifestyle is part of who they are. I understand your distinction in theory, my point is that this is not a black and white division[/quote]

No, a person's lifestyle is not part of who they are. That is the problem of people today. When someone says I am crazy for 'swallowing' Northwoods, I giggle, even though I am one of those conspiracy theorists. But hey, Mel Gibson, a well known Catholic, has been known to play them once and a while! But hey, I know that me learning all of these conspiracies is not who I am either, but something I do. So I don't mind people not understanding that stuff, or why I do it.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1637279' date='Aug 24 2008, 10:12 PM']Well, the worse my parents ever did was hit me (not like a beating even) they never roasted me in unending torment for an eternity.[/quote]

God is loving, but he is also just. He doesn't want those who aren't pure to be in heaven with him. If I don't make it to heaven, I will be upset at myself for not being there to worship my love Jesus Christ! I will suffer pure and utterly, not in flames, but in my own guilt for not honoring my love. Fortunately, I have this person called the holy spirit who guides me, and as long as I listen to him, he will lead me to my eventual destination, Heaven!

Edited August 25, 2008 by MakeYouThink

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1637364' date='Aug 25 2008, 01:29 AM']No, a person's lifestyle is not part of who they are. That is the problem of people today. When someone says I am crazy for 'swallowing' Northwoods, I giggle, even though I am one of those conspiracy theorists. But hey, Mel Gibson, a well known Catholic,[/quote]

Slight correction there: Gibson is NOT Catholic. He may consider himself as such, but he's not. He belongs to some kind of schismatic group that doesn't recognize Vatican II or the Holy Father.

Just wanted to clear that up.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1637245' date='Aug 24 2008, 10:52 PM']You liked that one, didn't you![/quote]


Sweet.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1637336' date='Aug 25 2008, 12:27 AM']Abomination. Noun
1. anything abominable; anything greatly disliked or abhorred.
2. intense aversion or loathing; detestation: He regarded lying with abomination.
3. a vile, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit, etc.

If abomination = sin and homosexual relations = sin then yes, it is fair to say that homosexual relations = abomination.[/quote]

arighty



[quote]Oh, and what point is that? Split personalities?[/quote]

No. You made it clear you love homosexuals; you just hate the sin that they do. However when you are talking about something as personal as personal intimacy or religion, this division is rarely so simple.

The point is that your distinction is like my saying that I like you, but I hate your religion.


[quote]Let's be honest here and say that you have no true understanding of Catholicism.[/quote]

I don't think that would be honest. You would need to define what you mean by "true" understanding of Catholicism.

[quote]Wrapping your mind around concepts that an infinite God has established is pretty mind boggling, yes? Sure it is. But that's where faith comes in. See, faith is this nifty little thing - we might not understand, but we embrace and trust, and with this God never leads us astray.[/quote]

Yes, as they say, "A series of contradictions held together by grace". I have said again and again that I understand this is a tenants of your faith, and that I respect it. So long as you admit that you have no rational basis for it.


[quote]Anyway, your venomous hatred for my religion is no big surprise.[/quote]


I don't hate your religion. I thought this was a very obvious point I was making, in response to your "love the sinner hate the sin" I put a "love the religious individual, hate the religion". I very clearly said I was simply making a point and did not really hate your religion, but actually had a good deal of respect for it.

[quote]Many people share your view. They're simply content with hating as opposed to actually make an attempt to understand the teachings. Oh, you've done some research, I'll give you credit. But you haven't researched to learn, you've researched to find more reasons to hate. No one is asking you to convert. No one is asking you to agree. But perhaps doing a little [i]more[/i] research will make it so that you [i]respectively[/i] disagree. But in reality, it's not what we agree with or what we disagree with, it's being obedient to Christ.[/quote]

I have no hatred towards Catholicism.

And when you ASSume you make an as....well, it's just never a good idea, let's leave it there

[Hassan]

[quote]And what is your religion, if I may ask?[/quote]

I don't have one.



[quote]Bummer, huh?[/quote]

I'd think so

[quote]I've put up plenty of fights with God. Do you think "it" (as in, Catholic teachings) helped me when I learned that I was being sinful and immoral by physically expressing my love with an old boyfriend? (Thank goodness God kept me from hitting that home run, if I may use that slang.) Do you think it helped me when I learned that if I didn't get to Confession and ended up dying in mortal sin, I was putting my very soul in jeopardy? How many of us kick and scream and beg and try to convince God (what a laughable idea) that He's wrong and that He can't possibly be against this, this, and that? We all have crosses. We all struggle with sin and temptation. All sin is disordered. No matter what ugly package sin comes in, it's disordered.[/quote]

Again, not even a close comparison. You could have married your old boyfriend and had all the (unprotected) sex you wanted.



[quote]You're under the absolutely bizarre impression that God sends us to Hell.[/quote]

I suppose I got that bizarre idea from the Bible which clearly shows Jesus sending off the goats while commanding the wicked people to leave him.

[quote]No, that's not true. But it's easy to point our finger at Him, isn't it, to put all the blame on Him and shirk our responsibilities?[/quote]

Yes, people are funny like that. When a being creates them, holds them responsible for a sin which entered the world through no fault of their own, and then informs them that they might either love him and devote their lives to him or burn in unrelenting hellfire for sins which he has decided to hold them accountable for, they sometime hold that being responsible.

[quote]our culpability? When you sin, you consciously reject Jesus Christ and everything that He stands for. You say, "No God, sorry, I'm too cool to follow You, I'm doing this [b]my[/b] way."[/quote]

Our culpability? We did not ask to be created, or to have immortal souls. God set up the game, and then punishes his "children" with eternal hell if they fail to maneuver properly through the rules of HIS game.