What I Think

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1636018' date='Aug 23 2008, 09:16 PM']We are not animals that mate indiscriminately when in heat.[/quote]

ummmm......

teenagers?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1635777' date='Aug 23 2008, 04:59 PM']What's wrong with incest? There was some brother and sister couple in the news recently and they really seemed happy together. I don't think any reasonable person could oppose their love for each other. Obviously abusive relationships are a different matter, but two consenting adults and in love, don't see anything wrong with that.[/quote]


uh oh.

You see. The argument against homosexuality largely rests on the, "it's icky" factor.

KoC's clever reductio ad absurdum rests on the assumption that no one will ask that very question.

I would not expect an answer if I were you, people will certianly chastize you for asking them to justify their claims however.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1635884' date='Aug 23 2008, 11:24 PM']Which would be the only logical conclusion if one supports homosexual unions based on love, thankfully however homosexual unions are illogical so your stance is also illogical.[/quote]

When aliemarie_11 asks what's wrong with homosexuality, you say that it's wrong because incest is wrong. And when I ask what's wrong with incest, you say it's wrong because homosexuality is wrong. That's some nice reasoning there.

I got lots of as replies, but no actual answers to my question. I'm guessing you only assume incest is wrong out of own personal disgust for it and don't actually have any valid reason to oppose such unions. It would have been pretty easy to just state that reason, after all. And as a subjective thing, disgust is a poor base for morality. You may find homosexuality and incest disgusting, but then someone can find heterosexual sex disgusting and unnatural. Obviously that doesn't make heterosexual sex wrong.

Looking at the answers people are giving to the original question about homosexuality, I think I now see where the problem is. You have all your rules about what's wrong and what's right, but God forgot to tell why those things are wrong. All you can say is that it's wrong and you better accept that it's wrong or you can't call yourself catholic anymore. It's kinda sad really.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1635884' date='Aug 23 2008, 11:24 PM']Again if all you need is love, some very wicked and sick unions are possible, some even you would not support, hopefully.[/quote]

No, I don't support wicked and sick unions. That's why I said "two consenting adults". And adult means mental and emotional maturity, no matter which law says what.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1636018' date='Aug 24 2008, 02:16 AM']We are not animals that mate indiscriminately when in heat. I don't see how any reasonable person could accept a man whoring with his sister and still pretend to have any stardards of existance at all.[/quote]

What makes you think someone who chooses his/her sibling doesn't discriminate who he/she has sex with? What an absurd thing to say! Again, I think you're only reacting by instinct and prejudice without actually thinking the issue through.

[Balthazor]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1636527' date='Aug 24 2008, 08:11 AM']"If all you need is 'love', there are many other perverse relationships that would say they 'love' each other. Honestly if it's ok to allow men to marry men based on love, why not also a brother to his sister, or a mother to her son, or a father and his daughter, or even a father and his son? All consenting adults that 'love' each other. Why not them too? "

indeed, why not?

I'm not approving on incest, however as Dr. Kreeft at BC said, "An act is innocent untill proven guilty"

Do you have any rational basis for your sexual ethics, or does it all rest on CHurch teaching?[/quote]


Well Actually in my moral book incest is a little worse than homosexuality, because of the possibility of Children. Not that having children is a bad thing, or the children are in themsleves less in any way becuase of thier parents. INstead I would like to point out the psycological damage that it would do to a child that would have a mother and father be brother and sister.
Not to mention the social stigma the world over!

It also opens a pandora's box of all other sorts of incest, such as father-daughter and mother-son couples... which is severly disordered on so many levels, and opens up the door to the abuse of the parental trust of a child.

Also the chances of genetic defects for the children goes up also with incest we can say that nautre is trying to tell us something. Don't reproduce with close kin.

[Balthazor]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1636536' date='Aug 24 2008, 08:23 AM']uh oh.

You see. The argument against homosexuality largely rests on the, "it's icky" factor.

KoC's clever reductio ad absurdum rests on the assumption that no one will ask that very question.

I would not expect an answer if I were you, people will certianly chastize you for asking them to justify their claims however. [/quote]

[Noel's angel]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but even from the beginning, it is easy to see that the OP is clearly confused. Apparently she is a Catholic but not practicing...that is senseless from the very start.
The posts arguing for homosexual relations have also been very confused and senseless, obviously written by people who are simply trying to play Devil's advocate instead of having an intelligent discussion about a serious matter. They are not looking for knowledge, simply an argument.
Thanks what [b]I[/b] think

Edited August 24, 2008 by Noel's angel

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1636534' date='Aug 24 2008, 08:20 AM']ummmm......

teenagers?[/quote]

[Aloysius]

[quote name='alimarie_11' post='1636325' date='Aug 24 2008, 02:01 AM']hmm to me, its not as sickening, as it is sad. JUst because these people feel this way or claim to, doesn't make them evil or bad or....icky.

its sad that thier love, or what they think is thier true love, happens to be their sibling.

it makes me sad for them, that it won't work out.

i want it to work for them, but with people other than eachother.

ha

and i ..don't like admitting this i suppose, because i under stand what you say in how
catholics see homosexuality, and that isss like how i see incest. but to me, incest and homosexuality, ..is not the same.

but yes, i understand now...and i am definitely thankful

[/quote]
definitely the highpoint of the debate... for although we continue to disagree, at least there is common ground and understanding a good start to conversation

all you need is love, yes. how do you express your love? well, we submit that love needs to be expressed in ways that are compatible with our human nature (evidenced by our biological bodies)... love ought to flow through natural means of mating. incest is biologically horrible because of the narrowing of the gene pool and increase of genetic diseases, homosexuality is biologically wrong because of

a brother and a sister ought to definitely love each other. ought of genuine love for each other, they ought not to engage in physical intimacy ever.

same with any two men. it's great to have two men that love each other, and you don't see nearly enough truly deep, close, and loving friendships between men in our culture (which is one reason homosexuality becomes so prevalent, as there is a genuine need for deep male friendships that doesn't get filled because of the walls built around the male sex in our culture)... but they ought not to use their anuses to stimulate those that they love and unnaturally stimulate their own prostate (it simply is not healthy to stimulate the prostate that way, nor to put such force through the rectal tissue)... they ought not attempt to stimulate each other sexually.

let me pose this question, because I like the "all you need is love" theme. IF all you need is love, why must you also have sexual satisfaction? you can believe that all you need is love and still limit sexual activity to the act which puts the sperm where it was designed to go, into an unrelated human female. and then you can see the start of a journey of love which is beautifully designed into our biology: a love that is so excessive that it overflows into an entirely new person (a baby) and exponentially increases between each other and the newborn each time it spills over into the generation of a new life. that's the beautiful model of love; and all models of love detached from this biological plan amount to self-centered spirals... not so much self centered on the self, but self centered on the couple... ie the one is centered on only the other and the other centered on only the one; rather than the type of overflowing love that focuses itself outwards towards the family that it generates.

plenty of straight people do not follow this model of love, and plenty of gay people attempt their hardest to mimic it and I have to say I respect the gays that try to mimic it much more than the straights who try to hide from it... but in the end the mimicing of it is just not nearly the same (and by mimicing, I mean those in sexual relationships who seek adoption) as the awesome experience of love expressing itself through nature.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1636693' date='Aug 24 2008, 02:48 PM']When aliemarie_11 asks what's wrong with homosexuality, you say that it's wrong because incest is wrong. And when I ask what's wrong with incest, you say it's wrong because homosexuality is wrong. That's some nice reasoning there.

I got lots of as replies, but no actual answers to my question. I'm guessing you only assume incest is wrong out of own personal disgust for it and don't actually have any valid reason to oppose such unions. It would have been pretty easy to just state that reason, after all. And as a subjective thing, disgust is a poor base for morality. You may find homosexuality and incest disgusting, but then someone can find heterosexual sex disgusting and unnatural. Obviously that doesn't make heterosexual sex wrong.[/quote]

You may frankly lack the morality to understand the comparison. If one supports incestuous unions any normal person is going to think that is sad. Nobody in there right mind will take someone that argues for incestuous unions seriously.

[b]However[/b], other than morality and the natural order, the other comparison is Children. The first and most important purpose for marriage is making babies, having children, procreation. Homosexuals unions can not ever procreate naturally, which makes such a union contrary to nature. A Homosexual union destroys the genetic blood line from continuing on as nature intended. A Homosexual union effectively destroys a infinite number of future generations, a great number of people who will not exist because Homosexual unions prevented their existence.

In incestuous unions the children who are born from such unions will be in great danger of being born with handicaps, mental and physical. One physical handicap which includes the child being born sterile. Effectively causing the same problem with homosexual unions in that it destroys the genetic blood line from continuing on as nature intended, and destroys a infinite number of future generations, and people from existing.

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1636693' date='Aug 24 2008, 02:48 PM']Looking at the answers people are giving to the original question about homosexuality, I think I now see where the problem is. You have all your rules about what's wrong and what's right, but God forgot to tell why those things are wrong. All you can say is that it's wrong and you better accept that it's wrong or you can't call yourself catholic anymore. It's kinda sad really.[/quote]

I'm not sure I understand God has told us it is wrong, and clearly done so threw the Church, and Holy Scripture. But there are scientific and natural reasons to warn against the unions in question.

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1636693' date='Aug 24 2008, 02:48 PM']No, I don't support wicked and sick unions. That's why I said "two consenting adults". And adult means mental and emotional maturity, no matter which law says what.[/quote]

So what you are saying and you are saying it, is that you are trying to place your morality on other unions that do not fit your understand of that morality. And yes, what you describe above is morality, the requirements you give above are simply moral requirements. You deny us our morality against homosexual and incestuous unions. Yet then you turn around and place your morality on unions that would not fit your understanding of 'two consenting adults who are mentally and emotional mature.'

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1636693' date='Aug 24 2008, 02:48 PM']What makes you think someone who chooses his/her sibling doesn't discriminate who he/she has sex with? What an absurd thing to say! Again, I think you're only reacting by instinct and prejudice without actually thinking the issue through.[/quote]

Please I mean really your in no place to speak of absurdity. It is unnatural for a man to mate with his sister, plane and simple.

Edited August 24, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[Hassan]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1636748' date='Aug 24 2008, 04:13 PM']You may frankly lack the morality to understand the comparison. If one supports incestuous unions any normal person is going to think that is sad. Nobody in there right mind will take someone that argues for incestuous unions seriously.

[b]However[/b], other than morality and the natural order, the other comparison is Children. The first and most important purpose for marriage is making babies, having children, procreation. Homosexuals unions can not ever procreate naturally, which makes such a union contrary to nature. A Homosexual union destroys the genetic blood line from continuing on as nature intended. A Homosexual union effectively destroys a infinite number of future generations, a great number of people who will not exist because Homosexual unions prevented their existence.

In incestuous unions the children who are born from such unions will be in great danger of being born with handicaps, mental and physical. One physical handicap which includes the child being born sterile. Effectively causing the same problem with homosexual unions in that it destroys the genetic blood line from continuing on as nature intended, and destroys a infinite number of future generations, and people from existing.



I'm not sure I understand God has told us it is wrong, and clearly done so threw the Church, and Holy Scripture. But there are scientific and natural reasons to warn against the unions in question.



So what you are saying and you are saying it, is that you are trying to place your morality on other unions that do not fit your understand of that morality. And yes, what you describe above is morality, the requirements you give above are simply moral requirements. You deny us our morality against homosexual and incestuous unions. Yet then you turn around and place your morality on unions that would not fit your understanding of 'two consenting adults who are mentally and emotional mature.'



Please I mean really your in no place to speak of absurdity. It is unnatural for a man to mate with his sister, plane and simple.[/quote]

You should be nice and limber after so muc stretching

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1636723' date='Aug 24 2008, 02:26 PM']They are not looking for knowledge, simply an argument.
Thanks what [b]I[/b] think[/quote]

I thought the same thing from the start.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1636693' date='Aug 24 2008, 02:48 PM']When aliemarie_11 asks what's wrong with homosexuality, you say that it's wrong because incest is wrong. And when I ask what's wrong with incest, you say it's wrong because homosexuality is wrong. That's some nice reasoning there.

I got lots of as replies, but no actual answers to my question. I'm guessing you only assume incest is wrong out of own personal disgust for it and don't actually have any valid reason to oppose such unions. It would have been pretty easy to just state that reason, after all. And as a subjective thing, disgust is a poor base for morality. You may find homosexuality and incest disgusting, but then someone can find heterosexual sex disgusting and unnatural. Obviously that doesn't make heterosexual sex wrong.[/quote]


You miss the point silly.

Homosexuality is morally deranged for the same reason God considers the ingestion of shell fish an abomination.

The reason these things are morally wrong is because they clearly are,
that is they clearly are to anyone who is not morally bankrupt/insane,
and we can tell who is not morally bankrupt by how clearly they see that the perquisite litmus test for moral coherence,
which is the recognition that the moral issues in question are clearly wrong,
which we know are in fact wrong because we recognize them as wrong thus proving our moral coherence,
thereby affirming the moral depravity of the actions in question
(which is clearly wrong).

Clear as crystal and shiny as a brand new dime

[Noel's angel]

Yeah, especially when people take the time to reply to every point, writing long explanatory posts, and all they can reply with is a one-liner which is unrelated to the topic.

[HisChildForever]

Homosexual relations is sin.
Incest is sin.

Why are we confused?

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1636861' date='Aug 24 2008, 05:36 PM']Homosexual relations is sin.
Incest is sin.

Why are we confused?[/quote]

because there has been no rational demonstration that it is wrong. If you simply wish to hold it as a matter of faith that is fine, but admit it as such.