Abortion And Punishment

[dairygirl4u2c]

the last abortion penalty debate was pretty well hashed.

this guy makes some interesting points about how abortion punishments were, compared to how people talk about abortion. ie, call if full blooded murder, yet make it a lesser crime.

do you think the reason it's a lesser crime is cause the woman is emotionally unsteady, or because there's a certain justification in uncertainty of when a human person begin, or when it's significant.
just cause you're emotioally unsteady though,,, doesn't mean you can just kill someone, esp when it's as inetntional as an abortion is, if it's so obvious.



[url="http://madvilletimes.blogspot.com/2008/08/abortion-is-not-murder-proof-in.html"]http://madvilletimes.blogspot.com/2008/08/...r-proof-in.html[/url]

[quote]Abortion Is Not Murder: Proof in the Punishment

New SD Watch contributor William A. Anderson starts his blogging stint with a bang, laying bare the fallacy that abortion is murder* and the failure of anti-abortion activists to think through the implications of their activism. Anderson links to this video showing anti-abortion protestors stumbling and fumbling for an answer to a seemingly simple question: "What should the penalty be for a woman who has an illegal abortion?"

"I've never really thought about it," say many of the interviewees, who mostly say they've worked in the anti-abortion movement for a couple years or more. Many come out sounding more like pro-choice activists, saying that abortion is between a woman's conscience and God. Not exactly a powerful case for legal intervention by the state.

Anderson connects the dots to Initiated Measure 11:

Nobody seems to have an answer, they haven’t even thought of it. Is this because they differentiate, albeit subconsciously, between a living baby and a fetus? Clearly, they must. Otherwise, this would be an easy question to answer....

Section 1 of IM 11 tells us that abortions “terminate the life on an entire, unique, living human being…” Terminating the life of a human being is murder. So if we are to believe IM 11, we must concede that abortion in murder. And, given that this is a premeditated act, abortion would be first degree murder, which, in South Dakota, is punishable by death [William A. Anderson, "What Good Is an Abortion Ban If There's No Penalty for the Mother," SD Watch, 2008.08.16].


IM11 would make illegal abortions a Class 4 felony, maximum penalty 10 years in the pen, $20,000 fine. First-degree murder is a Class A felony, mandatory sentence of death or life in the pen, plus possible $50,000 fine. Second-degree murder is a Class B felony, mandatory life sentence, plus possible $50,000 fine. (See SDCL 22-6-1 for all felony classifications.)

Anderson is right: the unwillingness of anti-abortion activists to advocate full murder penalties for abortion shows that even they recognize a difference between terminating a fetus and killing a human being. The practical consequences of IM11 contradict the rhetoric its supporters are using to win its passage.

It's easy for some folks to pray loudly and publicly, to trot out simple slogans and fetus porn. But as I am trying to explain to Pastor Hickey, making good public policy is more complicated than making simple moral declarations.

Anna gets this; Rebecca gets this. Robbinsdale Radical gets this.

And deep down, as William points out in a strong blog debut, nearly everyone gets that there's a difference between a fetus and a living human being.[/quote]

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1634775' date='Aug 22 2008, 03:40 PM']the last abortion penalty debate was pretty well hashed.

this guy makes some interesting points about how abortion punishments were, compared to how people talk about abortion. ie, call if full blooded murder, yet make it a lesser crime.

do you think the reason it's a lesser crime is cause the woman is emotionally unsteady, or because there's a certain justification in uncertainty of when a human person begin, or when it's significant.
just cause you're emotioally unsteady though,,, doesn't mean you can just kill someone, esp when it's as inetntional as an abortion is, if it's so obvious.[/quote]

Honestly, I think it ought to be viewed as any other murder case. If emotional instability can be proven, then there is emotional instability. But, there are MANY abortions that are had that are only about the woman deciding she didn't want a kid. Nothing to do with pressure from anyone else, fear, etc. And I think the normal conditions for emotional instability ought to be used.

[dominicansoul]

Women who procure abortions should be convicted as murderers. If they interviewed me, I would have no problems stating this. Somehow we are supposed to feel we should have a different view of them because some are young, some are "out of touch with the reality of what they are doing," some just don't seem cognizant of the fact they are killing a human being??? I say, the punishment should fit the crime.

[Didymus]

The difference with abortion though, is that our society and our culture as a whole are often, if not always with every case, guilty of coercion.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1634828' date='Aug 22 2008, 02:59 PM']The difference with abortion though, is that our society and our culture as a whole are often, if not always with every case, guilty of coercion.[/quote]
Perfect point.
There's likely not NEARLY as many cases where a murderer's girlfriend/boyfriend, family, and friends are all telling him/her to go out and kill someone.
Sadly though, I've heard a lot of stories where that's the case for a young woman who's become pregnant.
I can't imagine the distress... in those cases.

[dairygirl4u2c]

that link was actually a proposed ill for punishment it looks like. i'm not sure why there's a bill like that out there, ocnsidering it'd be repealed by roe.
but i'm pretty sure that the law before roe were also like that,,,, ie not murder in the first degree.

one could argue even then they were wrong,,, or sone could argue that the science is sufficient now to justify the first degree.
people who saythe science is settled,,, are usually just tryig ot justify saying that it should be outlawed or wrong... it'd be interested to see if they'd be willing ot go all the way with it. i uess with this article, that's what he's shown many won't do. (presumbaly most of them would argue the cookie cutter stance that the science is settled)

you really couldn't argue emotional unstability too much, unless it's insanity, which isn't likely for a woman by far most of the time. people who murder are usually a little unstable, but that's not enough to get them off. people who want to make it murder should realize that,,, and not try to rationalize it by saying maybe they cna get mitigation if they are really emotionally unstable. it's just not going to happen hardly ever.
i think that people might do that, is much like the point the ugy was making initiall.

[Autumn Dusk]

I would worry about the women who are threatened to have an abortion or be out on the street (quite literally) or even killed by parents/bf...their lives are over either way. In a city there are helps, but in middle of no-where America being put out can mean death.