China Underground Catholics Defy Police Ban

[Barbarus]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1635523' date='Aug 23 2008, 12:27 PM']You guys can get angry and annoyed all you want, but the word brothers does not refer to women, period. And I for one, as a Christian WOMAN, do not like women being referred to as "brothers" since this is blatantly incorrect and has never been used in the English language. I don't care if it is done by a tradtional female Catholic. It's incorrect. I'm not wrong here, so if you guys choose to keep making an issue out of it like I've done something horrible and unreasonable for correcting this issue, then that's on you, not on me.[/quote]
On the contrary, the term "brothers" has long been used generically in Christian circles, just as the word "men" has been used to indicate "all mankind." An example I can think of off the top is that of the Brethren Protestant denomination. This was not a single-sex group, but they nevertheless utlized the word "brethren" as self-descriptive. The key is usage; as with any other word, the definition is determined by the context in which a word is used. PP's use of it here was appropriate.

It is really only in the past 10-20 years that there has been an increased sensitivity to the use of this and similar terms from more strident feminist groups. These same groups have been intent on re-negotiating biblical translations that time and again used terms like "brothers" and "men" as generic terms. These terms were used precisely because they were generics in common usage at the time these translations were done.

[SJRod55]

Now lets see....


American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This broth·er Audio Help (brŭth'ər) Pronunciation Key
n. pl. broth·ers

A male having the same parents as another or one parent in common with another.
pl. also breth·ren (brěth'rən) One who shares a common ancestry, allegiance, character, or purpose with another or others, especially:
A kinsman.
A fellow man.
A fellow member, as of a fraternity, trade union, or panel of judges on a court.
A close male friend; a comrade.
A fellow African-American man or boy.
Abbr. Br. or Bro. A member of a men's religious order who is not in holy orders but engages in the work of the order.
A lay member of a religious order of men.
pl. also brethren A fellow member of the Christian church.
pl. also brethren Something, such as a corporation or institution, that is regarded as a member of a class: "A station that ... relies on corporate contributions or advertising to survive runs the risk of becoming virtually indistinguishable from its commercial brethren" (W. John Moore).

Abbr. Br. or Bro. A member of a men's religious order who is not in holy orders but engages in the work of the order.
A lay member of a religious order of men.
pl. also brethren A fellow member of the Christian church.


[Middle English, from Old English brōthor; see bhrāter- in Indo-European roots.]


and....

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
broth·er Audio Help /ˈbrʌðər or, for 9, ˈbrʌðˈɜr/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bruhth-er or, for 9, bruhth-ur] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural brothers, (Archaic) brethren; interjection
–noun 1. a male offspring having both parents in common with another offspring; a male sibling.
2. Also called half brother. a male offspring having only one parent in common with another offspring.
3. a stepbrother.
4. a male numbered among the same kinship group, nationality, race, profession, etc., as another; an associate; a fellow member, fellow countryman, fellow man, etc.: a fraternity brother.
5. Ecclesiastical. a. (often initial capital letter) a male numbered among the lay members of a religious organization that has a priesthood.
b. a man who devotes himself to the duties of a religious order without taking holy orders, or while preparing for holy orders.

6. brothers, all members of a particular race, or of the human race in general: All men are brothers.
7. Slang. fellow; buddy: Brother, can you spare a dime?
8. Informal. a black man; soul brother.
–interjection 9. Slang. (used to express disappointment, disgust, or surprise).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: bef. 1000; ME; OE brōthor; c. D broeder, G Bruder, ON brōthir, Goth brothar, Skt bhrātṛ, Gk phrtér, L frāter, OIr bráthair, OCS bratrŭ]

—Related forms
broth·er·less, adjective
broth·er·like, adjective


—Synonyms 1. Brothers, brethren are plurals of brother. Brothers are kinsmen, sons of the same parents: My mother lives with my brothers. Brethren, now archaic in the foregoing sense, is used of male members of a congregation or of a fraternal organization: The brethren will meet at the church.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

[SJRod55]

Personally I think the theme and objective of this thread is more important than whether the use of the word 'brothers' was grammatically correct. As an English teacher for more than 25 years, including teaching IB, A-level etc I could spend hours dissecting peoples usage of English online. Is it American English? British - or Scottish as opposed to English or even Welsh English? Australian or Canadian English? Indian or South African English? Wow what a can or worms to open... I think it best to concentrate on the topic or theme rather than dissecting the quality of the post!

But that's just a personal opinion.

I still use spell check and found 4 errors in this 'opinion' before sending ... and hey I teach English!

[Barbarus]

I totally agree, Rod. My response was due to the fact that the attack on this particular usage was totally unwarranted, and dead wrong to boot.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Barbarus' post='1636618' date='Aug 24 2008, 11:00 AM']I totally agree, Rod. My response was due to the fact that the attack on this particular usage was totally unwarranted, and dead wrong to boot.[/quote]


It wasn't dead wrong. Nor was it an attack. Don't even try that.

Brother is a masculine word that in today's common usage is NOT directed at women. This. Is. A. Fact. It's undeniable. Trying to argue against this is insulting your intelligence and mine.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1635511' date='Aug 23 2008, 10:18 AM']Secondly, how about taking correction with humility? Yes, even I have to do sometimes.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
really?

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1637020' date='Aug 24 2008, 08:54 PM']+J.M.J.+
really?[/quote]

Do you read every single post I write? I doubt it, but if you did you would know that I have been told numerous times when I made a mistake and I accept it, like when I just yesterday said Joe Leiberman was pro-life. And beofre that I used "conversating" wrong.

The sarcasm, which is like a slap in the face, is really not polite. Since others are so happy to lecture me on appropriate Phatmass behavior maybe everyone else should try following the same advice.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1637034' date='Aug 24 2008, 07:07 PM']Do you read every single post I write? I doubt it, but if you did you would know that I have been told numerous times when I made a mistake and I accept it, like when I just yesterday said Joe Leiberman was pro-life. And beofre that I used "conversating" wrong.

The sarcasm, which is like a slap in the face, is really not polite. Since others are so happy to lecture me on appropriate Phatmass behavior maybe everyone else should try following the same advice.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
sorry, i didn't mean it as sarcasm. just a fun poke - because you have very *ahem* strong willed opinions. it wasn't meant as an attack. just think of every time you read any of my posts, that i almost never mean things in a mean spirited manner.

[Balthazor]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1637034' date='Aug 24 2008, 09:07 PM']Do you read every single post I write? I doubt it, but if you did you would know that I have been told numerous times when I made a mistake and I accept it, like when I just yesterday said Joe Leiberman was pro-life. And beofre that I used "conversating" wrong.

The sarcasm, which is like a slap in the face, is really not polite. Since others are so happy to lecture me on appropriate Phatmass behavior maybe everyone else should try following the same advice.[/quote]

It is kind of hard to avoid your posts

Seriously Madam V.
I think that the people here have been treating you with consiredable charity considering your tendancy to blow a simple tongue in cheek comment up way bigger than it was meant. I have been off and on Phatmass for years... do some posts make me angry ? Yes. Have I flew off the handle? Yes.
But you seem to take every single little comment as a personal slam and it is just not true. You even took my comment on my own stupidity as a personal slam once... I am still reeling from your response! And wondering What I said wrong.

Honestly people here tease you because they like you. It is just the way they are, please don't take everything like it was meant as a snotty comment or a personal attack.

Edited August 25, 2008 by Balthazor

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1637052' date='Aug 24 2008, 08:18 PM']+J.M.J.+
sorry, i didn't mean it as sarcasm. just a fun poke - because you have very *ahem* strong willed opinions. it wasn't meant as an attack. just think of every time you read any of my posts, that i almost never mean things in a mean spirited manner. [/quote]

Oh, okay! 'Cause that totally was out of character for you. And I DO take correction. Just because I'm "strong-willed" doesn't mean I won't accept when I'm wrong.

[homeschoolmom]

So.... from about post #4-25 of this thread we have abandoned the topic... sad.

Praying for the Church in China.

[SJRod55]

[quote]So.... from about post #4-25 of this thread we have abandoned the topic... sad.[/quote]

Agreed!

[Lil Red]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1637422' date='Aug 25 2008, 05:42 AM']So.... from about post #4-25 of this thread we have abandoned the topic... sad.

Praying for the Church in China. [/quote]
+J.M.J.+
i'm sorry