Fidei Defensor Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1641928' date='Aug 29 2008, 06:21 PM']Fidei, Madame, like myself, are learning that despite the expressed opinion of politicians saying they are Christian, and that the morals and laws of the land are Christian, there is a movement that is entirely against Christianity. All you have to do is open a book like the Jesus Family Tomb, and see the attack right away. (One day, I will have to trounce that book. I have it, and in some portions of the book, where they have paintings, a familiar mark - the all seeing eye of Free Masonry/Horus/Lucifier is there. . . I wonder if this is a free mason hoax!) And then you have the Divinci Code. After my brother read it, he asked me a ton of questions about my belief in God and the Bible, and I went, I've read a lot about church history - and yes, there were people who voted this and that, but the overwhelming response was for this. Christianity is being attacked. . . for a reason. . . and it's the danger we bring. It isn't so much the contrast of the Status Quo, but who we have as a Father, and how far he will go to protect his children. The ones who are warring against it now witnessed a huge flood that destroyed them 5000 years ago. They want to win by diverting people from God and our lord Jesus Christ. So, yes, the world order is against true believers, but it's not like they can win![/quote] I'm not talking about politicians. I'm talking about written law and the constitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakeYouThink Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1641929' date='Aug 29 2008, 07:26 PM']I'm not talking about politicians. I'm talking about written law and the constitution.[/quote] You mean the document that Bush gutted with the Patriot Act. Or how 26,000 priests and pastors who would work with the government to tell their congregations to give up their fire arms during a national emergency, I thought there was a separation of church and state. I am glad I am not going to church anymore. I'm one of those wacko Christians who won't be involved in a church that is corrupt. [url="http://www.ksla.com/Global/story.asp?S=6937987"]http://www.ksla.com/Global/story.asp?S=6937987[/url] [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRIDNQNsUss"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRIDNQNsUss[/url] These are against the constitution that was created by Christians. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 Show me a legal document that mandates the separation of church and state, and I'll show you a man who has been proven wrong. You won't provide it, because it doesn't exist. Even if it did, the spirit of the separation is to prohibit a religious institution from running the government. Remember the historical context of the revolution. The CoE being tied so closely in with the English Throne didn't exactly sit with the colonists. The spirit of the terminology was to prevent a situation like this from arising in the US. By the by, that oh-so-common buzzphrase comes from a private letter from Jefferson to a recipient who I do not remember at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1641966' date='Aug 29 2008, 07:34 PM']Show me a legal document that mandates the separation of church and state, and I'll show you a man who has been proven wrong. You won't provide it, because it doesn't exist. Even if it did, the spirit of the separation is to prohibit a religious institution from running the government. Remember the historical context of the revolution. The CoE being tied so closely in with the English Throne didn't exactly sit with the colonists. The spirit of the terminology was to prevent a situation like this from arising in the US. By the by, that oh-so-common buzzphrase comes from a private letter from Jefferson to a recipient who I do not remember at the moment.[/quote] Typical cookie-cutter answer. Saying that the government can dictate religious morals on the country is against the spirit of the first amendment and the idea that everyone has the right to their own beliefs. There may not be some scripted out law, but you won't find anyone who actually believes that it would be a good thing for the government to dip into the realm of religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1641783' date='Aug 29 2008, 04:40 PM']Here's the thing Airways, I agree with lots of those sediments with them. Now, before this truly erupts into something it isn't - more persecution, think about some people's behaviour here. Some people say they don't want to be considered one of those right winged Christians because they believe in 6-day creationism. Isn't that the same kind of venom and hatred as you feel at those meetings? What makes the person I read saying that, Anti-Protestant to the extreme, any better than those who say praying to Mary is idolatry? So, we can see the issue. One side ridicules and belittles the other side, who in turn does the same for other things, and both sides are filled with violence and anger over what they perceive as attacks on their beliefs. So, how are you going to change that? Are you willing to take a 6-day creationist seriously, or someone who doesn't follow the pope? Or are you going to attack them continually, making them ask if you are truly the sons God talked about, who would will bring peace. . . Maybe, one of you should say, you know, I am truly sorry for belittling your beliefs, even though I don't share them, in the 6-day creationism, and that you don't follow the Pope. It was wrong of me to be so harsh when you didn't agree with what my faith has taught me. Maybe, if you did that. . . They would forgive and apologize as well![/quote] THere is a difference between belittling and disagreeing. Belittling gets warnings and vacations, disagreement is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1641832' date='Aug 29 2008, 05:44 PM']They want to create divisions and each side attacks the other, because of a cycle of violence. Each wants to prove they are right and the other is wrong![/quote] It has nothing to do with violence. If one thing is true its opposite must be false. Pointing out something that is false is not a bad thing, it can lead you to the truth. And the truth will set you free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1641969' date='Aug 29 2008, 08:39 PM']Typical cookie-cutter answer. Saying that the government can dictate religious morals on the country is against the spirit of the first amendment and the idea that everyone has the right to their own beliefs. There may not be some scripted out law, but you won't find anyone who actually believes that it would be a good thing for the government to dip into the realm of religion.[/quote] This is not a legal document either, but since we're taking Jefferson's letter excerpt to heart, we'll also take this one from Adams. [quote name='LETTER TO THE OFFICERS OF THE FIRST BRIGADE OF THE THIRD DIVISION OF THE MILITIA OF MASSACHUSETTS']We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.[/quote] [url="http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/adamsmilitia.html"]http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/adamsmilitia.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1641973' date='Aug 29 2008, 07:47 PM']This is not a legal document either, but since we're taking Jefferson's letter excerpt to heart, we'll also take this one from Adams. [url="http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/adamsmilitia.html"]http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/adamsmilitia.html[/url][/quote] I'm not "taking Jefferson's letter to heart," I'm saying that for our country to be as great as it is today, no matter who suggested it, the idea of separation of Church and State is a good one. If you don't like it, move to the Vatican. Nothing is stopping you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 I'm saying, in the spirit which Jefferson wrote of it, yes, it is a good idea. I'm also saying, I agree with Adams that, the constitution is not suited for the government of any but a moral people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1641977' date='Aug 29 2008, 07:53 PM']I'm saying, in the spirit which Jefferson wrote of it, yes, it is a good idea. I'm also saying, I agree with Adams that, the constitution is not suited for the government of any but a moral people.[/quote] I would argue that you don't have to be religious to be moral, or at least, not everyone who is moral shares the same religion as you, hence the point of the separation. It allows freedom of belief. But the government is responsible to the people, and whatever morals the people have, the government should also have. But they dont need to be tied to a religion. You can have your morals because of your religion, but you can't tell people they must follow that religion in order to be moral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 I could agree with everything there but that very first clause. I'd also note that our Church teaches freedom of religion for all peoples. Just puttin' that out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 (edited) [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1641981' date='Aug 29 2008, 07:58 PM']I could agree with everything there but that very first clause. I'd also note that our Church teaches freedom of religion for all peoples. Just puttin' that out there.[/quote] Why do you have to be religious to be moral? Oh wait, I know. Because if you're not religious, then the morals dont fit in your narrow definition of what is moral. Edited August 30, 2008 by fidei defensor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1641983' date='Aug 29 2008, 09:03 PM']Oh wait, I know. Because if you're not religious, then the morals dont fit in your narrow definition of what is moral.[/quote] Sigh. You know what I'm going to say? Why must we play this game? Alright, I'll bite. Because without God, there is no right or wrong. Everything is simply relative. Thence there can be no definite morals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1641987' date='Aug 29 2008, 08:10 PM']Sigh. You know what I'm going to say? Why must we play this game? Alright, I'll bite. Because without God, there is no right or wrong. Everything is simply relative. Thence there can be no definite morals.[/quote] Why must you believe in God in order to be religious? Or rather, more precisely, why must one believe in YOUR God to be religious and thereby moral? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakeYouThink Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 (edited) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1641970' date='Aug 29 2008, 09:39 PM']THere is a difference between belittling and disagreeing. Belittling gets warnings and vacations, disagreement is fine.[/quote] LOL! Have you read the conversation between me and Airways? He said he feels persecuted by people who say Mary is idol worshipping at college. I said, it is because how some Catholics treat protestants, in life general. Some hardcore Catholics come off as stodgy egotists who seem to think because someone doesn't belong to the Catholic Church, they have sinned and are destined to hell, and then ridicule beliefs like 6-day creationism. I remember one debate I watched, and the Catholic Scientist said this to the 6-day creation scientist. [quote]I believe in the same God you do, except my God is smarter than yours. . .[/quote] I use to rejoice hearing stuff like that, because I was adamant on such things, but now, I can see the arrogance of his attitude. It smells like elderberries, if you ask me! So is it a wonder Protestants feel angry, and then lash out at a church that comes off that arrogant and nasty, saying anybody who believes the earth is 6,000 years old is illogical. . . Do you expect any kind of friendly attitude between you and them when you think they're beliefs are illogical? So they lash out, and say things like, Whore of Babylon and you're Apostate, and you're idolators, because they have enough of your abuse over their chosen beliefs! And so the throw insults at you, which in turn lead you to insult them, and that escalates the negative feelings between both of you. That is what happened in Ireland, and that is what will continue to happen in this world, because nobody will accept responsibility of their actions and blame the other side for insulting them. It doesn't happen on this board (well yes it does), but it happens in real life! Edited August 30, 2008 by MakeYouThink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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