Protestant Doctrine Of Infallibility

[Selah]

No, seriously...BJORK???

"welcome to bangkok, Bj-AHH! WHY ARE YOU HITTING ME, BJORK!!! AHHHH!!!"

lol

[thessalonian]

If they are not infallibly certain that they are 100% assured of their salvation the rules of logic kinda fall apart. You see you cannot be 100% certain you will go to heaven if you are not 100% certain that your interpretations of all the pertinent scriptures is infallibly correct. If you are only 99.1% certain that you have interpreted correctly then by the rules of logic you cannot be 100% assured of your salvation. Logically and mathematically it doesn't work.

[princessgianna]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1630994' date='Aug 18 2008, 07:31 PM']No, I am not Catholic. I just don't get hung up on me entering Heaven, because that is God's job to decide. I just have to live with his decision in the end. I put my 100 per cent trust he will do as he sees fit.[/quote]
If I am be very curious for a moment!
Why do you believe that?And what are your biblical bases for that reasoning?
Pax~

[BG45]

Personally I've been raised in the Once Saved, Always Saved doctrine. Ask Jesus into your heart, and it'll all be okay.

Sadly Scripture just doesn't line up with that. Throughout the New Testament we have references not to just having been saved, but being saved. Then there are even more references to that we will be saved.

One of the biggest sticking points against OSAS off the top of my head is 2 Tim. 2:11-12
[quote]This saying is trustworthy: If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.[/quote]

If we're always saved, why must we persevere? This came up once at church camp in the form of a question. A man is "saved" by saying the Sinner's Prayer, he goes on to kill dozens of people in a serial killing spree. Will he go to Heaven? The answer was yes.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1630890' date='Aug 18 2008, 05:37 PM']Recently I have become aware that protestants who believe in OSAS have a doctrine of infallilbility. They say that they can know that they are saved and will go to heaven when they die. Oddly enough I have heard some of them say that some who believe they have an infallible certainty of this will not go to heaven because they have decieved themselves and are not bearing fruit.

Comments?[/quote]


[quote name='BG45' post='1631611' date='Aug 19 2008, 11:27 AM']Personally I've been raised in the Once Saved, Always Saved doctrine. Ask Jesus into your heart, and it'll all be okay.[/quote]

i was also raised in the OSAS doctrine, or as i later called it, the "Get Out of Hell Free Card" belief.

Back to the OP, yes, i remember people talking about those who had deceived themselves. This idea helped when they were confronted with the problem of how it was possible for anyone who'd prayed the "Sinner's Prayer" to later embrace a life of sin at the risk of damnation - my Baptist teachers and pastors would have said that those people must not have truly meant the prayer when they said it to begin with. Thus, if you were honest with the prayer, then yes, you can be 100% sure of salvation. Otherwise, yes, it was possible to deceive yourself. That's how they justified OSAS.

[thessalonian]

But how do you know if you really said it honestly and what level of honesty is required? Do you have to have renounced all sin? That after all is what repentence is. But what if you still desire that drink or that woman that you have been immoral with? In Ray Comfort's "Hell's Best Kept Secret" audio he says that most people who come down for a Billy Graham altar call have been up for altar calls 6 or 8 times. That's says theirs alot of doudt in their minds about whether they were really saved or not. The assurance isn't so assured for most. Of course Ray implies that most of these were never really saved because they haven't really had salvation present to him his way.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1632516' date='Aug 20 2008, 08:04 AM']But how do you know if you really said it honestly and what level of honesty is required? Do you have to have renounced all sin? That after all is what repentence is. But what if you still desire that drink or that woman that you have been immoral with? In Ray Comfort's "Hell's Best Kept Secret" audio he says that most people who come down for a Billy Graham altar call have been up for altar calls 6 or 8 times. That's says theirs alot of doudt in their minds about whether they were really saved or not. The assurance isn't so assured for most. Of course Ray implies that most of these were never really saved because they haven't really had salvation present to him his way.[/quote]


i'm just saying that was how OSAS was presented to me. As i got older, i began to question this, wondering if those who were trying to explain it to me really believed it themselves, since it seems like such a circular loophole: honestly repent, and you'll be saved - the Blood of the Lamb will cover your desires for evil things; if you do turn back to sin, you weren't honest in your repentance in the first place... i know this is a simplification, but no one really went much deeper than this with me in my Baptist days, and i really wasn't convinced that the teachers and pastors proclaiming OSAS were as sure about it as they wanted people to think. Sorry for not being of much help.

[BG45]

DItto to what Fides said. With the way it was explained to me it was that way, or just "sometimes we give in to our desires but we're still forgiven", See 'serial killer' example last page.

[thessalonian]

fides, I was only affirming your post. Thanks much. Your former Catholic perspective is highly valued and helpful. May I quote you guys if the opportunity arises?

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1632769' date='Aug 20 2008, 12:49 PM']fides, I was only affirming your post. Thanks much. Your former Catholic perspective is highly valued and helpful. May I quote you guys if the opportunity arises?[/quote]

whoah, whoah, whoah!!! i am not a former Catholic! i've been a practicing Catholic for five or six years!


i hope you meant former Baptist, and yes, you may quote me if needed.

Edited August 20, 2008 by fides quarens intellectum

[thessalonian]

My bad. I meant baptist, not Catholic. I know your Catholic.

[fides quarens intellectum]

whew. thanks.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1632516' date='Aug 20 2008, 08:04 AM']But how do you know if you really said it honestly and what level of honesty is required? Do you have to have renounced all sin? That after all is what repentence is. But what if you still desire that drink or that woman that you have been immoral with? In Ray Comfort's "Hell's Best Kept Secret" audio he says that most people who come down for a Billy Graham altar call have been up for altar calls 6 or 8 times. That's says theirs alot of doudt in their minds about whether they were really saved or not. The assurance isn't so assured for most. Of course Ray implies that most of these were never really saved because they haven't really had salvation present to him his way.[/quote]

I've seen and watched a lot of Ray Comfort's work. I have to say, of all the Evangelists out there, he is the most correct, because he tries to evangelize the way Jesus did.

Remember, Jesus is the Role Model. It is because of him that I realize I have broken all of the commandments, I am the worst of sinners, and that I don't deserve heaven, and why I cling to Jesus so much, because without him, no matter how holy I live, my righteousness is as filthy rags, so it really doesn't amount to much.

I think Ray would be a once Trust always Trust person, like myself. Once you Trust in God's work, why stop?

[thessalonian]

Sorry makeyouthink but I don't have alot to say in favor of INDIVDIUALS who have their own theology. Trust not your own understanding. Ray and Todd Freil are more Eternal Security types. There is some value in what they do but it is too one size fits all and neglects baptism which is almost never mentioned on their program except to say that Catholicism is wrong for teaching we become Christians and "get saved" through baptism. Every single place where someone was converted in the New Testament, they were baptized.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1632980' date='Aug 20 2008, 04:40 PM']Sorry makeyouthink but I don't have alot to say in favor of INDIVDIUALS who have their own theology. Trust not your own understanding. Ray and Todd Freil are more Eternal Security types. There is some value in what they do but it is too one size fits all and neglects baptism which is almost never mentioned on their program except to say that Catholicism is wrong for teaching we become Christians and "get saved" through baptism. Every single place where someone was converted in the New Testament, they were baptized.[/quote]

I've only watched a couple of videos, so I could be wrong.

Baptism identifies us with Christ, and therefore is essential for regeneration. But one must realize they are a sinner and ask for forgiveness for salvation in the first place.